Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

[Fours]

I did a quick experiment tonight to test how fast the ball actually comes to the plate in the game.

I used James Shields for the test, 4 Seam fastball, and his Changeup. Everything was thrown right down the pipe.

Pitch Speed Slider = Default

Fastball

Radar speed 93MPH
Time to plate .63 seconds
True speed 66MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 84MPH
Time to plate .76s
True speed 54MPH


Pitch Speed Slider = Minimum

Fastball

Radar speed 91MPH
Time to plate .70s
True speed 59MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .82s
True speed 50MPH

Pitch Speed Slider = Maximum

Fastball

Radar speed 92MPH
Time to plate .56s
True speed 74MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .72s
True speed 57MPH

This is why changeups are so hard to time, for a pitch to be in the 50's it has to take a much higher trajectory to still be in the air when it crosses the plate. it's not the speed differential that makes it so difficult(differentials are slightly exaggerated, but not as bad as I expected), it's the fact that the ball is magically floating in at 54MPH as it follows the trajectory of an 84MPH pitch.


Here's what a 57 MPH pitch looks like, and you wonder why your brain has a hard time telling you when to hit X?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAv5R3SOQUw

I'm not criticizing how the game handles the physics of pitches, I just wanted to figure out why changeups kill so many of us. I doubt the answer is to make pitch speeds/trajectories in game realistic, anyone capable of hitting Aroldis Chapman will never need to pay $60 to do it.



Boring notes for nay-saying internet PhD's:

- Each pitch was timed in instant replay, from pitchers release to catchers glove.
- Distance used was 60'6" (ball is released forward of the rubber, but the catcher is set back, call it offsetting.)
- I measured each pitch 10 times, threw out highs and lows and averaged 8. - Finger malfunctions were ignored as well.

[bigd51]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

When adjusting the pitch speed slider, it states at the top of the screen that adjusting pitch speed 'Does not change game physics or affect AI'. The trajectory of the pitch will remain the same, regardless of what the pitch speed slider is set to. In fact, it's been like this for years, so I'm confident enough to say that this is not the reason change-ups are given people problems this year.

[Fours]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

When adjusting the pitch speed slider, it states at the top of the screen that adjusting pitch speed 'Does not change game physics or affect AI'. The trajectory of the pitch will remain the same, regardless of what the pitch speed slider is set to. In fact, it's been like this for years, so I'm confident enough to say that this is not the reason change-ups are given people problems this year.

I didn't say the trajectory changed, I said that the trajectory not matching the "actual" speed of the ball is what visually confuses the hitter, making you swing early.

When judging a known object in the air, your brain uses its trajectory to estimate the speed.

I'll bet most of you swing early when you're sitting on fastballs, just like I do.

Especially if you're new to the game, eventually you'll adapt and adjust to the different gravity.

[Smallville102001]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

I did a quick experiment tonight to test how fast the ball actually comes to the plate in the game.

I used James Shields for the test, 4 Seam fastball, and his Changeup. Everything was thrown right down the pipe.

Pitch Speed Slider = Default

Fastball

Radar speed 93MPH
Time to plate .63 seconds
True speed 66MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 84MPH
Time to plate .76s
True speed 54MPH


Pitch Speed Slider = Minimum

Fastball

Radar speed 91MPH
Time to plate .70s
True speed 59MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .82s
True speed 50MPH

Pitch Speed Slider = Maximum

Fastball

Radar speed 92MPH
Time to plate .56s
True speed 74MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .72s
True speed 57MPH

This is why changeups are so hard to time, for a pitch to be in the 50's it has to take a much higher trajectory to still be in the air when it crosses the plate. it's not the speed differential that makes it so difficult(differentials are slightly exaggerated, but not as bad as I expected), it's the fact that the ball is magically floating in at 54MPH as it follows the trajectory of an 84MPH pitch.


Here's what a 57 MPH pitch looks like, and you wonder why your brain has a hard time telling you when to hit X?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAv5R3SOQUw

I'm not criticizing how the game handles the physics of pitches, I just wanted to figure out why changeups kill so many of us. I doubt the answer is to make pitch speeds/trajectories in game realistic, anyone capable of hitting Aroldis Chapman will never need to pay $60 to do it.



Boring notes for nay-saying internet PhD's:

- Each pitch was timed in instant replay, from pitchers release to catchers glove.
- Distance used was 60'6" (ball is released forward of the rubber, but the catcher is set back, call it offsetting.)
- I measured each pitch 10 times, threw out highs and lows and averaged 8. - Finger malfunctions were ignored as well.

What difficulty where you doing this on? The higher the difficulty the faster the ball is thrown. I fell like all of this is slow then I thought it would be. I wonder to how this would compare to MLB before last year because last year they slowed down the pitch speed and also made the timing window bigger to make it easier to hit.

[Fours]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

What difficulty where you doing this on? The higher the difficulty the faster the ball is thrown. I fell like all of this is slow then I thought it would be. I wonder to how this would compare to MLB before last year because last year they slowed down the pitch speed and also made the timing window bigger to make it easier to hit.

I think it would have been All Star.. I didn't know the difficulty changed the pitch speed.

I'll test Legend.

[MrOldboy]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

The real issue isn't the changeup at 84mph, it's the mid and low 70s changes that are most frustrating.

It's why Tanaka was so effective online when he had his change and why pitchers with 17-22 mph differentials are as well still (i.e. Neshek).

[therewillbechud]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

It's not really that hard to read changeups, at least somewhat consistently. I'm laughin if a guy has an 80's fastball and a 60's changeup. I'll kill that poor sod. Guy's are just used to swinging at mid 90's fastballs and are swinging at straight stuff not making the adjustments.


Personally I don't think there's much science needed, but I appreciate the attempt if it helps other people.

[Fours]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

What difficulty where you doing this on? The higher the difficulty the faster the ball is thrown. I fell like all of this is slow then I thought it would be. I wonder to how this would compare to MLB before last year because last year they slowed down the pitch speed and also made the timing window bigger to make it easier to hit.

I tested on Legend difficulty and there is no difference at all in the time the ball takes to get to the plate.

[Fours]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

The real issue isn't the changeup at 84mph, it's the mid and low 70s changes that are most frustrating.

It's why Tanaka was so effective online when he had his change and why pitchers with 17-22 mph differentials are as well still (i.e. Neshek).

That's exactly my point.

Using a 84mph, or 60mph changeup doesn't change the fact that the ball takes the same flat trajectory to the plate, so it appears to float as if it was thrown underwater.

If I real pitcher had a 22mph difference, you would be slightly fooled by the arm speed, but the release point would not match the fastball, and the ball would appear to hop up into the air and you would recognize changeup right away. An ideal changeup comes about 8mph slower than the fastball, the release point that way can be almost identical because the change is choked back tight to the palm and thrown lower, instead of out toward the fingertips with a 4-seamer, to a batter, it looks the same. And when you see the "hop" from a pitcher with a great changeup, you know it's coming in high in the zone and you're gonna be on ESPN tonight.

[Mrmagoo]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

I tested on Legend difficulty and there is no difference at all in the time the ball takes to get to the plate.

So then the pitch speed isn't increased in higher difficulty levels?
Been told it was for at least a couple years here iirc.

[nomo17k]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

I have measured in-game pitch speeds in the past, and I don't actually think they are as slow as the OP measured.

(My measurements for MLB 13 are in this post: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...48&postcount=3)

The reason why the difference in pitch speeds in various difficulty levels could not be detected may be because the measurement method doesn't have the precision to detect the slight difference... I couldn't measure the difference myself.

However, you can clearly feel the difference in pitch speed if you change up difficulty levels while playing.

[Mysterious]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

I did a quick experiment tonight to test how fast the ball actually comes to the plate in the game.

I used James Shields for the test, 4 Seam fastball, and his Changeup. Everything was thrown right down the pipe.

Pitch Speed Slider = Default

Fastball

Radar speed 93MPH
Time to plate .63 seconds
True speed 66MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 84MPH
Time to plate .76s
True speed 54MPH


Pitch Speed Slider = Minimum

Fastball

Radar speed 91MPH
Time to plate .70s
True speed 59MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .82s
True speed 50MPH

Pitch Speed Slider = Maximum

Fastball

Radar speed 92MPH
Time to plate .56s
True speed 74MPH

Changeup

Radar speed 83MPH
Time to plate .72s
True speed 57MPH

This is why changeups are so hard to time, for a pitch to be in the 50's it has to take a much higher trajectory to still be in the air when it crosses the plate. it's not the speed differential that makes it so difficult(differentials are slightly exaggerated, but not as bad as I expected), it's the fact that the ball is magically floating in at 54MPH as it follows the trajectory of an 84MPH pitch.


Here's what a 57 MPH pitch looks like, and you wonder why your brain has a hard time telling you when to hit X?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAv5R3SOQUw

I'm not criticizing how the game handles the physics of pitches, I just wanted to figure out why changeups kill so many of us. I doubt the answer is to make pitch speeds/trajectories in game realistic, anyone capable of hitting Aroldis Chapman will never need to pay $60 to do it.



Boring notes for nay-saying internet PhD's:

- Each pitch was timed in instant replay, from pitchers release to catchers glove.
- Distance used was 60'6" (ball is released forward of the rubber, but the catcher is set back, call it offsetting.)
- I measured each pitch 10 times, threw out highs and lows and averaged 8. - Finger malfunctions were ignored as well.

his face was ppriceless

[Smallville102001]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

I think it would have been All Star.. I didn't know the difficulty changed the pitch speed.

I'll test Legend.

Yep I don't know how much it changes it but it does. If you go into batting practice and play on rookie and then go to legend you will see the ball is faster. When you go up on difficulty the ball is faster and also the timing window is smaller and the PCI is smaller to.

[Smallville102001]

Re: Fastball vs Changeup "real" speeds

So then the pitch speed isn't increased in higher difficulty levels?
Been told it was for at least a couple years here iirc.

It does it is even in the guide and you can tell and fell it when you increase the difficulty.