Pitch Count / Innings Limit

[ML]

Hey guys, I was wondering if anybody here makes a house-rule that involves pitch counts and/or innings limits.

For example, at the beginning of my season I usually keep my starters on a lower pitch count than I do if it's the middle of August where they're free to throw until they're out of gas.

Not sure if this actually effects anything in the game when it comes to stamina / durability (I don't think it does) but I think its a fun way to make this game a little more realistic than it already is.

Feel free to share how you take care of your pitchers' wings.

[canes21]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I pretty much only look at whether I'll have an off day between their starts or not. The AI doesn't really have a limit, so I don't set myself one strictly. I generally like realism, but at the same time restrict myself to what the cpu does and doesn't do.

[Jr.]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I typically ascend the pitch count through Spring Training, so by their first start, my starters can go 90 pitches. After their 3rd start, I give them free reign.

[dickey1331]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

Mine all depends on their energy level and how I feel they are doing. I don't really take pitch count into consideration

[Yrogergj24]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

100 pitches or 7 innings, whichever comes first is when they get pulled. I only ever let them complete a game if I'm up by more than 5 from the 6th inning on

[Syce]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

7th inning is typically my goal for my starters, but if they start losing their command and letting the score start to get out of hand then its time to pull them.

[BrianM207]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

Ironically I almost started this thread yesterday haha.

I actually dont have a pitch or innings limit. I generally let my guys go until they get into real trouble. As a rule though I always have a guy up in my bullpen from the 6th on....even if its just stretching.

[TheWarmWind]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I ramp up the pitches throughout spring training and into the season. Pitchers get free reign after their 2nd or third start. If I've clinched a playoff spot, I also like to ramp down just a bit.

I usually work a system that involves both a "soft" pitch limit (pitcher can finish the inning/get the batter out) and a "hard" pitch limit (pitcher is not allowed to pitch over said number regardless of situation). These numbers are usually 10 to 15 pitches apart.

[BrianM207]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

Yeah...playing as the Mets, I usually factor in if my pitcher is due to hit the next inning(if hes struggling)...depends on how many outs, if hes been in jams all day or just that inning etc...I usually wont pull him without at least a mound visit to try and calm him down.

[ML]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

One thing I forgot to mention is that I definitely keep my pitchers limited if they are coming off any kind of throwing arm injury, although it doesnt matter in the game I do like the realistic feel for it. (Only if we could get rehab starts!)

[timmermac]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I don't have a pitch count or innings limit for my pitchers. I have an effectiveness limit. Once a starter gives up 5 runs in a game, they are done. No exceptions. If I have a big lead or if they are pitching a shutout, they get to finish what they start.

[tessl]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I keep an eye on the stamina bar, it varies from pitcher to pitcher depending on the stamina attribute.

It does impact how much stamina they will have for their next start assuming no off days in between. I believe durability rating is also a factor in determining how quickly they recover stamina.

From lead A I programmer Brian

The two keys to succeeding in late game are knowing when to pull your starter, and transitioning to relief pitchers.

Starters
As a starter gets tired, he loses control of pitch location more than anything else. In fact, some pitchers gain velocity late innings while very few lose more than 1mph (there's even a hidden attribute that handles this). Keeping this in mind, when a starter is tired you want to pitch around a bit more. This is because it's much more important to avoid throwing easy pitches down the middle than to avoid throwing balls.

How does that work? For simplicity, imagine a normal pitcher misses in a circle of 6 inches radius. Let's say in the 7th inning, he misses in a 6.5 inch radius. By moving all his pitches out .5 inch (for example), as far as deep strikes are concerned he's no worse off than before. The drawbacks are the batter can get ahead on the count more, you might bean or wild pitch by accident (which isn't that common all things considered), and you throw more pitches per batter faced. But since this strategy overall can keep a pitcher in the game you'd otherwise pull, it's a way of coping with a loss of control. This is especially more important for mid to low tier starters than for top starters.

Most starters can pitch 100, even 110 pitches until they hit 25% energy. It all depends on their stamina attribute. Below 25% energy, starters start losing control more rapidly. In a close game and a #5 starter, you might want to pull him at that point. But with a #1 starter or in a game you've sealed the deal you can certainly keep going. You'll underperform on average, but it won't matter because a win is a win.

It's worth noting that aside from pitcher attributes (HPer9, BBPer9, KPer9), energy is the second most important factor in pitching. I'd even say that in a typical game attributes are roughly 70% importance, energy is 20%, and confidence is 10%. The problem here is that if you drain every starter to 0 energy as an extreme, instead of being only 20% important it easily become 40% or 50% important. Don't let that happen in a game that matters - only run energy down to 0% because you don't care.

The penalties ramp up as you go below 25% energy. Likewise, from 100% down to 25% energy it's not a huge difference.

Relievers
Collectively speaking, mid relief pitchers are much worse than starters. In fact, the average mid reliever is a step worse than even the average 5th starter. And considering this is based on relievers pitching 1 inning each, they're even worse than their stats say. The main saving grace is that you use the above average relievers much more than the below average ones whenever possible.

With that in mind, in an important game you want to limit relievers to 1 inning each. A reliever with full energy is comparable to a bad starter with low energy - which is also why you don't just keep a starter in forever (he'll eventually cross the point of being worse than your relievers).

The closer is the exception, and that's why you only use him when it matters and save him otherwise. If you're going to lose, who cares if you lose by 5 runs or 10 after all? They're both the same as far as the season looks at it. Let the bad relievers handle the blowouts.

Relievers have to pitch, knowing that they're not as good. When the game is close, they have to pitch carefully rather than always to the batter like some top starter can. A good starter can miss the ball right down the middle and it'll still be un-hittable at 98mph. A reliever certainly can't, otherwise he'd be slated to start games himself.

The last issue is that as a video game, switching between any two pitchers can be jarring and takes some pitches to get used to. This applies to something as simple as jumping into an exhibition game, playing for 1 inning, and jumping into another with a different team. This was for me the hardest part about getting effective with relief pitching.

With all that said, even though relief pitchers are overall worse than starters this is only borne out in the long run. In any given game, it wouldn't be a surprise to see relievers shut out the side while the starter did poorly. It's just a matter of probability and how you manage that risk.

I used to have the same problems as far as relief pitching, but I found the above two keys to be the solution.

Other Notes
By the way, I do want to add that as far as the game plays and hits are determined, the hitting engine has no idea which team is AI or human controlled. The concept doesn't exist in the hitting engine, and it doesn't treat AI vs AI games any differently than human vs human games.

If it wasn't for the fact that the Show is a team-built video game with competitors, I'd publish the logic for hit determination and it wouldn't be that long. The rules are mainly the physical interaction between timing, pitch location, bat aim location and size, and player attributes. When you use a mode like timing-only, all the missing components are determined automatically using the AI code without any modification.

Take a look at the Swing Analysis for the AI after a pitch. Whatever hit or miss resulted, it would have been the same for you had you made the same inputs. Keep in mind player attribute and the difficulty setting both play a role here as well in scaling how big or small your batting cursor is.

This means the AI is responsible for picking the right timing and right batting cursor aim, then deciding if he should swing or not. The way the AI does this, it doesn't know where the ball is exactly or what the result of his swing will be. The AI wears "beer goggles" so even if the pitch is inside the AI might think it's down the middle. This is exactly why the AI will take strikes or chase balls, and (less trivially) why pitch break fools the AI correctly. A slider that lands outside might get the AI to swing, whereas a backwards slider on the inside might get the AI to take the pitch. A canned system is incapable of getting this to work correctly and naturally in every aspect. And that in summary is exactly why the system is double-blind. The AI doesn't know where the ball is and what the hitting engine will spit out, and the hitting engine has no idea who's controlling the bat.

[countryboy]

Re: Pitch Count / Innings Limit

I don't have an inning limit. I base it on how they effective they are, how the game is going and how they have been performing lately. Struggling pitchers have a quicker hook, while pitchers who have been pitching well of late, get more slack before I pull them out of the game.

Now all this changes once September call ups arrive, especially when in a playoff race. Everyone has a short leash for mistakes.