MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

[tessl]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

How are you figuring that? Are you taking innings played at catcher into account? That double figure is pure nonsense.

No, the passed balls are not equal. You have to consider innings played at position and then count passed balls.

I already addressed wild pitches in my post above, just letting you know that innings should be factored into that equation of yours.

I love this forum and I don't argue with people because I don't want to get banned. I attempt to explain things.

You asked why Perez has a lower blocking attribute than Posey. I explained blocking is about balls in the dirt. A pitch in the dirt which allows the runner to advance is not a passed ball, it is a wild pitch.

Innings for Posey in 2012-2014 at Catcher 2933/82 wild pitches = .0279
Innings for Perez in 2012-2014 at Catcher 3016/127 wild pitches = .0421

Posey is better at preventing wild pitches. I'm not a developer but I believe this explains why Posey has a better blocking attribute than Perez.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

I don't think there is a discussion to be had though regarding the OVR calculation as we cannot change how the game calculates the OVR rating. We can bicker about the individual ratings for skills like speed or blocking, but the OVR calculation isn't something we can change. That was my point, it is what it is and just because a player has a higher WAR, that does not mean his individual ratings will translate to the same OVR rating you'd expect. I'm not trying to argue that Upton > Marte, I'm saying that based on their statistical production (offense vs defense) it can be seen how The Show rates them differently based on their skills ratings (CON, POW, FLD, etc).

WAR =/= OVR Rating. It is just a general holistic evaluation of a player's statistical production. It shouldn't translate to the games OVR rating either as the in game OVR rating is based on the individual ratings like speed and contact.

The Show does not track many of the statistics that WAR uses in it's calculation so they have no choice other than fudge it a bit by using their own calculation.



His numbers aren't that far off. Posey played about 80% of Perez's innings. When adjusted for innings played, Posey still had significantly less wild pitches, which is what the blocking rating in game should be based on. Passed balls should have nothing to do with blocking.

You mentioned power, contact, and fielding. Well, Marte has hit for the better average and is a better fielder. I think that Marte's better WAR demonstrates all that.

I do not agree that passed balls should not be included. Blocking in my view is passed balls. As for wild pitches, how do you suppose they get that information? Who is determining that statistic? Fangraphs? Fangraphs reports lots of stats, including pitch type. Do you think that information about pitch types is accurate from fangraphs? How about player speed?

I have no idea why one would consider wild pitches but not passed balls for blocking. Blocking to me is preventing passed balls, and allowing them is related to blocking. You have to tell me who exactly is determining the wild pitches caused by the catcher.

Why would passed balls affect the Blocking stat? Blocking should be a factor of how well the catcher BLOCKS balls in the dirt. If a ball hits the dirt and gets by the catchers, it's not a passed ball.

Passed balls in the dirt. See above for more.

I love this forum and I don't argue with people because I don't want to get banned. I attempt to explain things.

You asked why Perez has a lower blocking attribute than Posey. I explained blocking is about balls in the dirt. A pitch in the dirt which allows the runner to advance is not a passed ball, it is a wild pitch.

Innings for Posey in 2012-2014 at Catcher 2933/82 wild pitches = .0279
Innings for Perez in 2012-2014 at Catcher 3016/127 wild pitches = .0421

Posey is better at preventing wild pitches. I'm not a developer but I believe this explains why Posey has a better blocking attribute than Perez.

Oh, so now you choose to leave out 2015. 2012 was not a complete year for Perez. Anyway, do you think Fangraphs reporting of pitch types is accurate? Player speed? Do you know who is making those determinations, such as wild pitches attributed to the catcher?

If Perez was that bad at Blocking, how is it he won the gold glove three years in a row, and Wilson Defensive Player of the year in at least 2015?

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

The following is from Wikipedia, and if you have a better source that contradicts what is said, please present it.

"In baseball, a catcher is charged with a passed ball when he fails to hold or control a legally pitched ball that, with ordinary effort, should have been maintained under his control, and, as a result of this loss of control, the batter or a runner on base advances. A runner who advances due to a passed ball is not credited with a stolen base unless he breaks for the base before the pitcher begins his delivery.

A passed ball may be scored when a runner on first, second, or third base reaches the next base on a bobble or missed catch by the catcher, or when the batter-runner reaches first base on an uncaught strike three (see also Strikeout).

A closely related statistic is the wild pitch. As with many baseball statistics, whether a pitch that gets away from a catcher is a passed ball or wild pitch is at the discretion of the official scorer. Typically, pitches that are deemed to be ordinarily catchable by the catcher, but are not, are ruled passed balls, while pitches that get by the catcher that are thought to have required extraordinary effort by the catcher in order to stop them are wild pitches. If the pitch was so low as to touch the ground, or so high that the catcher has to rise out of his crouched position to get to it, or so wide that the catcher has to lunge for it, it is usually then considered a wild pitch and not a passed ball.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passed_ball

What I gather from the above is passed balls are pitches that should have been caught by the catcher, and fault lies with catcher. Wild pitches are pitches that require extraordinary effort by the catcher and appear more closely related to fault of pitcher throwing wildly, and not due to fault of catcher.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

I should add to the above that what we don't know is if a wild pitch would have been caught by this or that catcher. The scenario is unknown. What is known is that passed balls should have been caught with ordinary effort.

What do I mean by this or that catcher. What was the pitch speed? Would so and so catcher have caught that ball? There is no way to know that. There is no way to know whether Posey or Perez would have caught what the other missed.

[MrOldboy]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

I honestly do not understand why you are arguing this.

Wild Pitch: BLOCKING

Passed Ball: FIELDING

One has to do with preventing pitches from reaching beyond the catching area resulting in a baserunner moving up a base.

The other has to do with the catcher missing a catch or letting a catch-able pitch get by them. It has nothing to do with blocking. If the catcher has to get into a blocking position then the pitch could never become a passed ball, it can only become a wild pitch.

Wild pitches and passed balls are determined by the official scorer. The same goes for errors. These stats are not made up by fangraphs or anyone, they are consistent between sources as the official scorer decides what pitches become wild pitches and which plays become errors.

[p00p1]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

You mentioned power, contact, and fielding. Well, Marte has hit for the better average and is a better fielder. I think that Marte's better WAR demonstrates all that.

I do not agree that passed balls should not be included. Blocking in my view is passed balls. As for wild pitches, how do you suppose they get that information? Who is determining that statistic? Fangraphs? Fangraphs reports lots of stats, including pitch type. Do you think that information about pitch types is accurate from fangraphs? How about player speed?

I have no idea why one would consider wild pitches but not passed balls for blocking. Blocking to me is preventing passed balls, and allowing them is related to blocking. You have to tell me who exactly is determining the wild pitches caused by the catcher.

Passed balls in the dirt. See above for more.



Oh, so now you choose to leave out 2015. 2012 was not a complete year for Perez. Anyway, do you think Fangraphs reporting of pitch types is accurate? Player speed? Do you know who is making those determinations, such as wild pitches attributed to the catcher?

If Perez was that bad at Blocking, how is it he won the gold glove three years in a row, and Wilson Defensive Player of the year in at least 2015?

Here's your 2015 #'s.
Posey 901 innings / 20 wild pitches = 1 every 45 innings
Perez 1192 innings / 48 wild pitches = 1 every 25 innings

Career:
Posey 4898/133 = 1 every 37 innings
Perez 4548/193 = 1 every 24 innings

That's not to say Perez isn't a good defensive catcher, or Posey is a better one. It does pretty much back up that Posey is better at BLOCKING.

[JTommy67]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

With respect to defensive ratings, a couple of things to note:

When I was attempting to discover what statistics might be used by devs to calculate ratings, I was more-less able to figure out what they were using for most hitting and pitching ratings. I compared three-year averages in all kinds of statistics to default ratings and ran correlation coefficients in excel. When I found what I thought they might be using, the R-values were typically around .90 to .95 and even as high as .98 when looking at players who had three full years worth of statistics.

However, when it came to defensive ratings I was completely stumped. The highest R-value I could generate for any rating at any position was about .65, which was lower than the lowest R-value I got for any of the other ratings - and I looked at everything I could possibly think of, including zone ratings and all kinds of advanced statistics found on baseball-reference and in virtually every combination. As a result, I know no more about defensive ratings than I did before I started.

I have no idea what they're doing to get those ratings. However, I would suggest there might be a fair degree of subjectivity. With respect to Posey and Perez, they both have had the same blocking rating for the last three years. Perez has been at 70 for four straight years now. You often find this - there are a lot of players that have the same rating from year to year for some or all of the defensive statistics. It would seem they gauge ability early in a person's career and then make adjustments here and there, usually for players who are getting on in age.

How they are initially rating players defensive abilities, however, I don't know. But with respect to defensive ratings in the game, I think there is room for some dispute. I've run across a number of ratings over the past few years that completely stumped me. In short, it would seem they have accepted the common criticism which is so often leveled at defensive statistics - they just aren't a good reflection of a player's effectiveness in the field. Not saying I agree, but looking at ratings and comparing to defensive statistics would seem to indicate that the devs are looking at it that way.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

I honestly do not understand why you are arguing this.

Wild Pitch: BLOCKING

Passed Ball: FIELDING

One has to do with preventing pitches from reaching beyond the catching area resulting in a baserunner moving up a base.

The other has to do with the catcher missing a catch or letting a catch-able pitch get by them. It has nothing to do with blocking. If the catcher has to get into a blocking position then the pitch could never become a passed ball, it can only become a wild pitch.

Wild pitches and passed balls are determined by the official scorer. The same goes for errors. These stats are not made up by fangraphs or anyone, they are consistent between sources as the official scorer decides what pitches become wild pitches and which plays become errors.

Here's your 2015 #'s.
Posey 901 innings / 20 wild pitches = 1 every 45 innings
Perez 1192 innings / 48 wild pitches = 1 every 25 innings

Career:
Posey 4898/133 = 1 every 37 innings
Perez 4548/193 = 1 every 24 innings

That's not to say Perez isn't a good defensive catcher, or Posey is a better one. It does pretty much back up that Posey is better at BLOCKING.

So how do you know what kind of wild pitch it was? You guys know there are wild pitches that sail over the batter's head? How many of those "wild pitches" were over the batter's head, or just basically impossible to catch or block?

I consider that wild pitch data useless information, unless you can provide a breakdown of what kind of wild pitch it was.

I believe they awarded Perez three consecutive gold gloves and at least one Wilson Defensive Player of the Year with "wild pitches" included.

[letsgomets75]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

So how do you know what kind of wild pitch it was? You guys know there are wild pitches that sail over the batter's head? How many of those "wild pitches" were over the batter's head, or just basically impossible to catch or block?

I consider that wild pitch data useless information, unless you can provide a breakdown of what kind of wild pitch it was.

I believe they awarded Perez three consecutive gold gloves and at least one Wilson Defensive Player of the Year with "wild pitches" included.

While there may be a difference in the types of wild pitches, I think it's safe to assume that both catchers had a similar amount of unblockable wild pitches. Perez may have had more, maybe Posey had more or maybe they had the exact same amount of unblockable wild pitches. Nobody is going to know the exact numbers so the wild pitch numbers are all that matter, you're grasping at straws. Perez is a great defensive catcher and has earned those awards, but he hasn't had much competition. Posey doesn't have any awards because he competes against the best defensive catcher of all time.

[tessl]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

You mentioned power, contact, and fielding. Well, Marte has hit for the better average and is a better fielder. I think that Marte's better WAR demonstrates all that.

I do not agree that passed balls should not be included. Blocking in my view is passed balls. As for wild pitches, how do you suppose they get that information? Who is determining that statistic? Fangraphs? Fangraphs reports lots of stats, including pitch type. Do you think that information about pitch types is accurate from fangraphs? How about player speed?

I have no idea why one would consider wild pitches but not passed balls for blocking. Blocking to me is preventing passed balls, and allowing them is related to blocking. You have to tell me who exactly is determining the wild pitches caused by the catcher.

Passed balls in the dirt. See above for more.



Oh, so now you choose to leave out 2015. 2012 was not a complete year for Perez. Anyway, do you think Fangraphs reporting of pitch types is accurate? Player speed? Do you know who is making those determinations, such as wild pitches attributed to the catcher?

If Perez was that bad at Blocking, how is it he won the gold glove three years in a row, and Wilson Defensive Player of the year in at least 2015?

Some of this is just baseball 101. The official scorer at the game rules on whether it is a passed ball or wild pitch.




When a pitch is thrown that is not caught by the catcher and a runner advances, it is scored as a wild pitch (WP) or passed ball (PB) as per scoring rule 10.13.
The difference comes down to whether or not the ball could have been handled with ordinary effort. If it could, then it’s a passed ball, otherwise a wild pitch. One specific hard and fast rule to use is that any pitch that hits the ground prior to getting to the catcher is always a wild pitch.

Catchers only block pitches in the dirt. They use the catchers mitt to catch balls which are not in the dirt.

I used 2012-2014 because those are they years the show based the ratings on for mlbts 15 and that rating is what you were confused about. If I had included 2015 it would have been the same - Posey had fewer wild pitches allowed per inning - WPApi.

[tessl]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

With respect to defensive ratings, a couple of things to note:

When I was attempting to discover what statistics might be used by devs to calculate ratings, I was more-less able to figure out what they were using for most hitting and pitching ratings. I compared three-year averages in all kinds of statistics to default ratings and ran correlation coefficients in excel. When I found what I thought they might be using, the R-values were typically around .90 to .95 and even as high as .98 when looking at players who had three full years worth of statistics.

However, when it came to defensive ratings I was completely stumped. The highest R-value I could generate for any rating at any position was about .65, which was lower than the lowest R-value I got for any of the other ratings - and I looked at everything I could possibly think of, including zone ratings and all kinds of advanced statistics found on baseball-reference and in virtually every combination. As a result, I know no more about defensive ratings than I did before I started.

I have no idea what they're doing to get those ratings. However, I would suggest there might be a fair degree of subjectivity. With respect to Posey and Perez, they both have had the same blocking rating for the last three years. Perez has been at 70 for four straight years now. You often find this - there are a lot of players that have the same rating from year to year for some or all of the defensive statistics. It would seem they gauge ability early in a person's career and then make adjustments here and there, usually for players who are getting on in age.

How they are initially rating players defensive abilities, however, I don't know. But with respect to defensive ratings in the game, I think there is room for some dispute. I've run across a number of ratings over the past few years that completely stumped me. In short, it would seem they have accepted the common criticism which is so often leveled at defensive statistics - they just aren't a good reflection of a player's effectiveness in the field. Not saying I agree, but looking at ratings and comparing to defensive statistics would seem to indicate that the devs are looking at it that way.

Could you give an example of multiple players at the same position whose defensive ratings you think are incorrect relative to each other?

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

Some of this is just baseball 101. The official scorer at the game rules on whether it is a passed ball or wild pitch.




When a pitch is thrown that is not caught by the catcher and a runner advances, it is scored as a wild pitch (WP) or passed ball (PB) as per scoring rule 10.13.
The difference comes down to whether or not the ball could have been handled with ordinary effort. If it could, then it’s a passed ball, otherwise a wild pitch. One specific hard and fast rule to use is that any pitch that hits the ground prior to getting to the catcher is always a wild pitch.

Catchers only block pitches in the dirt. They use the catchers mitt to catch balls which are not in the dirt.

I used 2012-2014 because those are they years the show based the ratings on for mlbts 15 and that rating is what you were confused about. If I had included 2015 it would have been the same - Posey had fewer wild pitches allowed per inning - WPApi.

Wild pitches are not just pitches in the dirt. You need a breakdown of the type of wild pitch for that data to be significant. Without knowing what type and if it was reasonably possible to be caught or blocked, I consider it lacking pertinent information.

I want facts, not assumptions.

[p00p1]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

Wild pitches are not just pitches in the dirt. You need a breakdown of the type of wild pitch for that data to be significant. Without knowing what type and if it was reasonably possible to be caught or blocked, I consider it lacking pertinent information.
A
I want facts, not assumptions.

You're the one who presented the argument, it should be on you to prove it with more than GGs. Google it, RPP = Catcher Blocked Pitches in runs above average, excluding 2015 which isn't calculated: Posey 9.1 Perez 3.5. Maybe if Perez played in the NL he wouldn't have so many fancy awards.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

The only data I can find relative to Perez and his blocking skills are in the link below:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/2/10/5358540/gold-gloves-catchers-molina-perez

I don't see Posey among the leaders.

"This very well may be a contributing reason to Perez's elite blocking; however, although the Kansas City staff has undoubtedly worked with him to dial back in order to avoid tipping pitches, habits are habits."

The link is to 2013 GG awards for 2013 season. Perez entered the majors in 2011 at the age of 21.

[tessl]

Re: MLB The Show 16 Player Ratings - Top Players at Each Position

Wild pitches are not just pitches in the dirt. You need a breakdown of the type of wild pitch for that data to be significant. Without knowing what type and if it was reasonably possible to be caught or blocked, I consider it lacking pertinent information.

I want facts, not assumptions.

Why would a catcher block a ball which isn't in the dirt?