Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

[Impetuous65]

I made a couple of vids showcasing Confidence in a couple of scenarios

Pitchers gaining confidence on foul balls that doesn't equate to a strike needs to be changed. Getting the pitcher deep into the count should not result in him gaining confidence on 6 or more pitches at a bat. It's done correctly in RTTS mode if you as a batter get the pitcher deep into the count 1. you get more training points and 2. the commentary lets you know how valuable that at bat was to the team, and seen more as productive out. Also, if the Pitcher isn't in a"payoff pitch" situation", "Good Contact" that results in deep fly balls, line drives or speedy grounders that result in an out, should not be rewarded with confidence in a particular pitch.

In the video below, you will see the amount of confidence this pitcher gained by me fighting off pitches. 9 pitch at bat and the pitcher benefitted greatly from that at bat. Yes, he loses some energy, but he gains confidence which kinda made me not want to fight off pitches. Now you're in a catch 22 damn if you do and damn if you don't. Decisions.

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Situation PayOff Pitch you tell me how you would handle confidence?
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I believe that a Pitcher has more confidence in his best pitch than he does in his lesser pitches in his repertoire. Which is why there should be tiered confidence.

Best pitch 100%
2nd Best Pitch 90% to a 100%
3rd best Pitch 80% to 90%(if available)
4th best Pitch 70% to 80%(if available)
5th best Pitch 60% to 75%(if available)
He can throw the pitch but he doesn't trust as much as he trust his good stuff, no matter how much confidence he has in lowest pitch on the hierarchy. Pitches that are not Primary and alternate, should never get to 100% confidence.

The Second part of the re-tool is (Pure Analog and Meter)

You know how the yellow line that gets thin to a blur if you're getting roughed up and gets wide when you gain confidence, well this needs to be changed as well in my opinion.

If I am using my best pitch and I have been throwing strikes and strikeouts and I'm near 95% the yellow line starts to get wide cool. Now if I select my 4th pitch and my 4th pitch is at 45% that yellow line should be a thin or a blur. The yellow line should be as dynamic in confidence just like the pitch confidence based on which pitch you select. I do like the current rule, they have in place "use it or lose it" confidence I mean. I like that if you don't use a pitch confidence in that pitch decreases. I like that it encourages you to use all your pitches.

Gaining confidence versus a Pitcher is a No No. If there is no one on base and you get him out good for you. The only time you should get confidence on a pitcher is on a sac bunt you can get the runner trying to advance from 1st out or 2 you can get strikes be it by way of foul tips or just strikes if he tries to sac bunt and fails.

I just think the way confidence is doled out so willy-nilly makes Meter and Analog pitching that much easier. As an end-user once I get the timing down and the confidence is high in a pitch, the game becomes easier, especially on the pitching side.

[KBLover]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

For revamping the current system (I admit I'm not in love with the whole concept - the fact a "variable stuff" type system seems to be in the game along with randomness is enough, imo), I agree that the context should matter more not just the end result.

A lined shot on a hanging curve hit at 110 MPH to SS for an out should not gain confidence. A pitch down and 4 inches off the outside edge that somehow gets golfed into left field for a single shouldn't throw him off too much (especially in isolation).

I'd also like to see leverage be a factor. Striking out the side in the 8th with 2 on and no outs as a bigger key situation than in the 2nd inning when your team has a couple runs on the board and no one on base.

Getting the pitcher out shouldn't really net any gain...that's about as "automatic" an out as there is. If the pitcher does damage, it should kind of shake him up a bit.

Perhaps another way to go would be to wait until after the inning to change confidence, or take the last three results and make a change. If he strikes out the side in order, that could give more than 1B, 1B, GDP, BB, LD out.

That said, I don't mind if "lesser" pitches can be better on that day. The #1 pitch doesn't always have to be the top dog, and should depend on flow of the game. I do like how it's more fluid, just needs some tweaks to giving/taking away confidence like you mention. Plus, I think pitch "ranks" in a repertoire are more about frequency for the CPU pitcher. There's no ratings impact or demarcation as for which pitch is slotted where.

Another fact could be potency of the hitter. This ties in some with your comments on getting the pitcher out. Getting Harper or Trout to hit a bouncer to 2B is a bigger deal than the pitcher or even someone like Yelich or J.P. Crawford.

Experience could be something, too. Or maybe make this what Clutch does for pitchers. Something to give a "personality" to where a war-worn vet who's "see it all" won't get flustered by some bloops but a more "mentally fragile" or inexperienced guy might start panicking or getting frustrated at making good pitches and giving up hits anyway. Or when things are bad, a vet/mentally strong player can "fight through it" better while rookie making his 3rd ML start might start wondering if he'll get anyone out.

[Impetuous65]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

For revamping the current system (I admit I'm not in love with the whole concept - the fact a "variable stuff" type system seems to be in the game along with randomness is enough, imo), I agree that the context should matter more not just the end result.

A lined shot on a hanging curve hit at 110 MPH to SS for an out should not gain confidence. A pitch down and 4 inches off the outside edge that somehow gets golfed into left field for a single shouldn't throw him off too much (especially in isolation).

I'd also like to see leverage be a factor. Striking out the side in the 8th with 2 on and no outs as a bigger key situation than in the 2nd inning when your team has a couple runs on the board and no one on base.

Getting the pitcher out shouldn't really net any gain...that's about as "automatic" an out as there is. If the pitcher does damage, it should kind of shake him up a bit.

Perhaps another way to go would be to wait until after the inning to change confidence, or take the last three results and make a change. If he strikes out the side in order, that could give more than 1B, 1B, GDP, BB, LD out.

That said, I don't mind if "lesser" pitches can be better on that day. The #1 pitch doesn't always have to be the top dog, and should depend on flow of the game. I do like how it's more fluid, just needs some tweaks to giving/taking away confidence like you mention. Plus, I think pitch "ranks" in a repertoire are more about frequency for the CPU pitcher. There's no ratings impact or demarcation as for which pitch is slotted where.

Another fact could be potency of the hitter. This ties in some with your comments on getting the pitcher out. Getting Harper or Trout to hit a bouncer to 2B is a bigger deal than the pitcher or even someone like Yelich or J.P. Crawford.

Experience could be something, too. Or maybe make this what Clutch does for pitchers. Something to give a "personality" to where a war-worn vet who's "see it all" won't get flustered by some bloops but a more "mentally fragile" or inexperienced guy might start panicking or getting frustrated at making good pitches and giving up hits anyway. Or when things are bad, a vet/mentally strong player can "fight through it" better while rookie making his 3rd ML start might start wondering if he'll get anyone out.

Good stuff, and I agree the best pitch should not always be the top dog on that day, but the Pitcher has more confidence in his best pitch is what I'm saying. If he's missing his spots or that best pitch is being hit it will go down, now if his 3rd best pitch is the top dog that day he gains confidence just not at a 100%. It's his 3rd best pitch for a reason, it's not his best stuff. That is what I'm eluding to.

[KBLover]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

Good stuff, and I agree the best pitch should not always be the top dog on that day, but the Pitcher has more confidence in his best pitch is what I'm saying. If he's missing his spots or that best pitch is being hit it will go down, now if his 3rd best pitch is the top dog that day he gains confidence just not at a 100%. It's his 3rd best pitch for a reason, it's not his best stuff. That is what I'm eluding to.

I think leave it organic. No limits or such. Have a tier to start (I think it does...or it's based on ratings and "variable stuff" and maybe last outing), but if the ratings and results are such that he's working that curve and it's doing better than his 4SFB and CH that day - so it goes. If it's really a weaker pitch, chances are he will make mistakes and results go down as hitters sit on it.

The pitch rankings in a repertoire seems to speak to frequency. For example, Kershaw's 4SFB should be #1 if only because he throws it 53% of the time, compared to 28% with his slider so that CPU Kershaw can throw it often. Is his slider that much worse than his FB? Is his curve that much worse than his slider? Should his curve be limited in the confidence he can gain in it despite it very likely being every bit as strong as the rest of his pitches?

The only pitch he seems to "hate" is his CH, and I'd wonder if that's more a classification issue of Pitch f/x (can't believe he's only thrown it 0.4% of the time last year - I probably wouldn't even list it if I was making a Kershaw).

Or Matt Harvey - he's a guy that mixes all of his offspeed evenly. Which pitch would you say he has less confidence in or could never gain "max" confidence in? Based on usage, looks like he likes and uses all his pitches and he's a very effective pitcher - which ones should be limited ones?

I think relievers especially might have a nasty #2 or #3 that is their real out pitch and set it up with fastballs, which are "#1" by frequency. Paco Rodriguez uses all his pitches evenly, almost literally. He almost has no "#1" pitch.

I think if it's left organic and any pitch can "max out" if the (ideally revamped) results dictate it, then let it max out. Let the hitters knock it back down or the pitcher starting to struggle with it (results driven by player actions and abilities) and let the "use it or lose it" work as well, so when the hitters do start chipping away at it...those other neglected pitches might bite him in the you know what.

I feel like capping it is inserting more "reminding me it's a video game" in what could be a portrayed as a organic and fluid process driven by what happening on the field (player ratings, actions, and results).

[Impetuous65]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

Confidence and RISP, should matter early and late, but more confidence in the later innings.

RISP versus the heart of the order should have a great points of emphasis.

[Steven78]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

Pitcher confidence has been implemented terribly for years.

[benny15]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

Pitch confidence is something that really gets to me. I'll admit from time to time I'll chase the low change-up for swinging strikes. The problem is the AI then hones in on that and boom 100% confidence on a 2-4th tiered pitch and they will throw 5 or more CH in a row to you.

I understand the game AI will find your weakness and should exploit them a bit...but I would like a more realistic game where they aren't throwing you 70% CH over everything else, this is not very realistic to real baseball.

[Ntal1621]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

I think the pitches he throws more in real life should have higher confidence in at the start then if he gets roughed up he starts to lose it not all of them start at 50

[Impetuous65]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

How do you guys feel about "Check Swings" on pitches out of the zone resulting in confidence increasing if ruled you went around or decreasing if ruled you didn't go around. I think confidence should remain static because the Ump is determining the outcome sometimes arbitrarily, especially if you have "variable" on. The Pitcher didn't hit his location and if he was trying to get you to chase, it is still in the hands of the ump because you didn't fully swing.

[benny15]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

To be honest I'm still waiting for pitchers to pitch like their real life counterparts. It's not like every pitch isn't catalogued these days.

[SpikeSpiegel]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

I've felt for a long time pitcher confidence needs to be completely reworked or at least the ability to turn it off (not just visually either). I picked up this game after a 4 year break and you are basically playing "the pitcher confidence" game both at the plate and when pitching much more than playing baseball. On Legend, I can literally throw nothing but fastballs all game and pitch just fine. And if the CPU gets their pitcher confidence up, it's nothing but hard hit balls at fielders when I do get good swings at the ball.

I'd much rather have pitcher confidence affect the visual pitch movement than increase pitcher attributes. If the pitcher gets a feel for his curveball, I'd rather have it "snap" more and/or "snap" later. That would make the pitch just plain harder to line up and hit instead of just harder to hit because its attributes are higher. A pitcher having a good sinker, have the sinker sink more. A good fastball has that extra "pop" to it so increase the speed a touch and/or give it a bit of extra tailing action (late rising action perhaps making it more likely to be popped up). Something like this would work perfect against zone hitters like myself. However, for direction and timing hitters, you'd need different solutions due the much less player input that goes into each swing. A good solution for directional hitters against a "popping" fastball would be to have them influence down to hit that fastball properly thus having the batter swing at bit higher than usual. Of course, then you can't just then influence down every pitch because you know the pitcher's fastball is good since you'll be just pounding off-speed pitches into the ground thus making the player have better pitch recognition to hit well vs a pitcher with a high confidence fastball. For timing hitting, you are most likely going to have to mess with the math going on under-the-hood. For example, to make locating and hitting that snapping curveball hard, lowering the hitter's plate vision attribute against high confidence breaking balls would be make it harder to square the PCI on the pitch (I think vision the main attribute that is used by the hitter to properly locate the PCI on the pitch). I think making the player have good timing on high confidence pitches would also be something that could work so having early timing on that high confidence curve would make getting a hit off of it very hard. I'm not at all a fan of basically the math dictating that I can't hit and I want player input to play a much bigger factor in the end result.

[KBLover]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

I've felt for a long time pitcher confidence needs to be completely reworked or at least the ability to turn it off (not just visually either).

You and me both, space cowboy.

I'd much rather have pitcher confidence affect the visual pitch movement than increase pitcher attributes. If the pitcher gets a feel for his curveball, I'd rather have it "snap" more and/or "snap" later. That would make the pitch just plain harder to line up and hit instead of just harder to hit because its attributes are higher. A pitcher having a good sinker, have the sinker sink more. A good fastball has that extra "pop" to it so increase the speed a touch and/or give it a bit of extra tailing action (late rising action perhaps making it more likely to be popped up).

Yes - I thought this is what would happen if "confidence" is really "feel" for each pitch. But it seems pitches really do act the same, they just end up where ever or just become easier to hit somehow.

For timing hitting, you are most likely going to have to mess with the math going on under-the-hood. For example, to make locating and hitting that snapping curveball hard, lowering the hitter's plate vision attribute against high confidence breaking balls would be make it harder to square the PCI on the pitch (I think vision the main attribute that is used by the hitter to properly locate the PCI on the pitch).

This is what happens already under Directional ("Timing" is now "Directional" but if you just hit the X without influence, it's basically like the old "Timing" and all the other processes are basically the same).

Contact + Vision work together. Both control the size of PCI and Contact impacts "accuracy" of the PCI. Vision determines if you make contact or not (Vision is the "counter" to K/9).

Confidence seems to act as a global modifier to all pitcher abilities and/or that pitch's ratings. This has an impact on the processes involved with Directional.

I think making the player have good timing on high confidence pitches would also be something that could work so having early timing on that high confidence curve would make getting a hit off of it very hard. I'm not at all a fan of basically the math dictating that I can't hit and I want player input to play a much bigger factor in the end result.

I don't know if the timing window does change based on confidence. That's a good question. That could be an abstract for having a tough time picking up the pitches that game, etc.

But I'd love if there could be an option to turn the confidence system off. When off, just the ratings (and user input for those interfaces) speak. There's already a "variable stuff" kind of system in the game. That, along with the organic nuances inherently present in the game of baseball, will take care of "variety".

[SpikeSpiegel]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

I don't know if the timing window does change based on confidence. That's a good question. That could be an abstract for having a tough time picking up the pitches that game, etc.

I wasn't talking about having the timing window change (that could also work) but making the player have good timing to have a chance at hitting the pitch well. I feel there should a way via player input (regardless of what hitting interface being used) to basically remove the penalties against you. If you time that high confidence curveball good, then you are basically at square one and the math dictating hit or out would be as if it were the first pitch of the game. You can do everything on your end well even perfectly squaring a pitch up using zone hitting, and you hit the ball right at fielders just because the pitcher is confident.

[KBLover]

Re: Pitching Confidence needs to be retooled?

I wasn't talking about having the timing window change (that could also work) but making the player have good timing to have a chance at hitting the pitch well. I feel there should a way via player input (regardless of what hitting interface being used) to basically remove the penalties against you. If you time that high confidence curveball good, then you are basically at square one and the math dictating hit or out would be as if it were the first pitch of the game. You can do everything on your end well even perfectly squaring a pitch up using zone hitting, and you hit the ball right at fielders just because the pitcher is confident.

Oh that. Yeah, I hate that too.

Hanging "confident" curve with good timing and a green PCI indicator (meaning the hitter had both timing AND swing location solid) and it's a bad hit due to confidence.

Drives me up a wall.