Updated Fielding - Outfielders

[El_MaYiMbE]

So I talked in another thread about the new fielding AI and how it works in conjunction with the runners coming out of the box. At first I thought the batters ran at full speed no matter what....

Someone pulled up some video from MLB 16 to prove that batters run slower on grounders that are sure outs and that mixed with the fielders taking their time in similar situations makes for a more realistic experience. So that is great and I am happy that is being implemented!

There is still an issue with plays being too close on doubles that go all the way to the wall.
It seems like the new fielding AI applies to IF but not to OF (hope I am wrong).

Take a look at a Retro Mode video recent posted by IGN (link below), where Pollock hits a ball in the corner down the line. This type of hit is GREAT to see as it would NEVER have happened in MLB 16, however when the LF retrieves the ball he fires it into 2B and Pollock has to slide into 2B.

Now, part of the AI fielding change as per Ramone was to make the game look more realistic, because a runner is not going to kill himself getting to 1B on a routine grounder and a fielder is not going to fire it across the diamond 100% of the time if there is a slow runner coming out of the box.

In real life, OF and runners take same approach on balls in the gap or in the corner.

Two things from the video that contradict above.

1. Pollock's speed is 75. He is not slow and he should have easily made it to 2B and it should not have been that close, period.

2. However, the LF should have also not thrown all the way to 2B. In real life he would have fired it into the SS (relay man) who would have looked back to 2B as Pollock was pulling in. This would have been more realistic, made the play not close at all, and prevented Pollock from sliding on a clear double.

Tremendous strides have been made to address people's complaints that the fields play too small. As we know now it was not that the fields play too small but rather the fielders took perfect routes too balls, always threw the ball hard, and the ball physics caused the balls to hang too long in the air.

All of these were addressed and it seems like the fields are not playing as small as they used to. But this is one example of something that still conjures those same feelings.

I am hoping this is just because this is not final build, but this is something that has been a problem in the series in general and I was hoping the new fielding AI would remedy this, but it does not seem to be the case.

Link below, 1:40 mark:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-gameplay.html

[Mitchrapp]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

1:40 mark. That didn't look like it was that close of a play. It looks like something I see in MLB all the time, real life. Plus the ball was hit rather hard.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

1:40 mark. That didn't look like it was that close of a play. It looks like something I see in MLB all the time, real life. Plus the ball was hit rather hard.

It was not as close because the 2B "cheated" the way the 1B cheats in MLB The Show when there is a throw from OF.

Have you noticed if you ever try to throw a player out from RF at 1B on a line drive right at the RF the 1B is never on the bag? They do that so you will not abuse it, and then yell "man thats BS!"

Samething here, the 2B was not on the bag, so the play did not look close. Had the 2B basemen been on the bag on that kind of throw...that is a bang bang play on a ball that rolled all the way to the wall, in the corner with a guy with 75 speed running hard out the box on a double....

In real life the LF would have thrown the ball into the cutoff man and not all the way to 2B and try to make it a close play. Not saying it does not happen in MLB, but just like the IF know who is running now in MLB 17, the OF should know too.

"Pollock is running, this is going to be a double, let me hit cutoff man and prevent him from rounding 2B"...this is how any LF would play this in real life.

Again not saying it does not happen in real life, but just how like in MLB 16 the IF always threw the ball hard, and now in 17 are a little smarter on when and how they throw the ball hard, it seems like it did not happen with the OF.

[Mitchrapp]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

It was not as close because the 2B "cheated" the way the 1B cheats in MLB The Show when there is a throw from OF.

Have you noticed if you ever try to throw a player out from RF at 1B on a line drive right at the RF the 1B is never on the bag? They do that so you will not abuse it, and then yell "man thats BS!"

Samething here, the 2B was not on the bag, so the play did not look close. Had the 2B basemen been on the bag on that kind of throw...that is a bang bang play on a ball that rolled all the way to the wall, in the corner with a guy with 75 speed running hard out the box on a double....

In real life the LF would have thrown the ball into the cutoff man and not all the way to 2B and try to make it a close play. Not saying it does not happen in MLB, but just like the IF know who is running now in MLB 17, the OF should know too.

"Pollock is running, this is going to be a double, let me hit cutoff man and prevent him from rounding 2B"...this is how any LF would play this in real life.

Again not saying it does not happen in real life, but just how like in MLB 16 the IF always threw the ball hard, and now in 17 are a little smarter on when and how they throw the ball hard, it seems like it did not happen with the OF.

I saw the player was not on the bag because the throw was off. Maybe he should have thrown to a cutoff man but irl that doesn't happen 100% of the time. As far as RF to 1B, how often does a player get thrown out irl from RF to 1st?

[Mitchrapp]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

I saw the throw again and it was right on. I thought the throw was off at first but getting to see your point.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

....As far as RF to 1B, how often does a player get thrown out irl from RF to 1st?

Almost never, but thats the point. Rather than making that play impossible by adjusting the speed of the runner or how the OF throws the ball back into the field, they solve for it by simply making the 1B not stand on the bag.

The result is the same....guy is safe, but how it is implemented is a little bit of trickery, 1B was never on the bag to even make the out.

I think same thing happened on this play.

The result is the same, Pollock hit a double, but how did they achieve it...by having the 2B out of position and not able to make the out to begin with.

Again, result is the same, but how it unfolded in front of me....I did not like it.

[jada855]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

El_MaYiMbE I understand what you mean. I am that player locked SS that the CPU always over throws on plays like the one in the video as if I was not even there on the field. One of the many reasons why the game feels so scripted.

I also agree that was a pretty strong throw from the left field wall directly to the second basemen

While MLB 17 has made some improvements and the updated player faces are nice. I am still hoping the player lock defense experience will be improved. But from the videos and Deep Dive (Ummmm!) Game Play Twitch Stream I've seen.

I am not so sure! Examples of the game play coming to a what feels like a dead stop once the ball is thrown in are still pretty evident!

It also looks like the (Slow Mo Effect) has been implemented into the Catcher throw mechanic! I was playing MLB The Show 16 last night and was leading off 1st base and there is slow mo every time the pitcher throws to 1st base. I will never understand why this is a good idea!

I cringe with unknown feelings when you lead off and the pitcher gets a extra long slow mo and no matter how much effort you try to hit the left stick to dive back to the base it will result in a out painful!

Player lock defense in real time is never shown during Twitch streams or other videos. I am starting to think it is not because no one plays the game that way.


But could you imagine a realistic baseball experience on both offense and defense with 9 of your friends playing all positions on a human controlled team in a E-League! that would truly test the gameplay! and not just focused on people who make videos on how far they can hit the ball on (Fast Play)

I would sign up and pay $$$ for that in a heart beat!

This is the result of when you see something that looks the part but does not play the part! Maybe this will change/improve in future iterations.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

Unfortunately it looks like we will still need to lower fielder arm strength and fielder run speed to help solve some of these issues.

In the past I lowered these sliders so the field would not feel so small as slower fielders and weaker arms give the illusion that the field is bigger than it is.

As mentioned above the field playing small is no longer an issue, but this is an issue with the logic. Had the LF simply opted to throw to cutoff man (by the way, where was the SS on this play? no where to be found) it would not even be an issue.

Slowing the fielder down and/or lowering arm strength via the slider by one point, might cause fielder to not make that throw as the runner would have been closer to 2B. So now that I say that, the logic does exist because I have definitely seen the cutoff man hit...but it seems like its triggered too late in the development of the play. As soon as that ball came off the bat and rolled all the way to the wall the LF should have known his only play was the cutoff man.

In real life that most of the time is not even a decision the OF has to make, the SS would be half way to the outfield waving the LF on to hit the relay first. Soon as he turns around, he should see relay man, hit his man, and thats it....if there is a slower runner (think Ortiz) then you look and see if you have a chance to catch the slow runner.

[jada855]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

LOL yeah the SS was last seen running with the third basemen! I will not play this mode at all. But I have seen similar situations in other gameplay videos.

I believe they said or I read some where its the same gameplay as the main game mode just with the Retro Mode tweaks?

[tessl]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

So I talked in another thread about the new fielding AI and how it works in conjunction with the runners coming out of the box. At first I thought the batters ran at full speed no matter what....

Someone pulled up some video from MLB 16 to prove that batters run slower on grounders that are sure outs and that mixed with the fielders taking their time in similar situations makes for a more realistic experience. So that is great and I am happy that is being implemented!

There is still an issue with plays being too close on doubles that go all the way to the wall.
It seems like the new fielding AI applies to IF but not to OF (hope I am wrong).

Take a look at a Retro Mode video recent posted by IGN (link below), where Pollock hits a ball in the corner down the line. This type of hit is GREAT to see as it would NEVER have happened in MLB 16, however when the LF retrieves the ball he fires it into 2B and Pollock has to slide into 2B.

Now, part of the AI fielding change as per Ramone was to make the game look more realistic, because a runner is not going to kill himself getting to 1B on a routine grounder and a fielder is not going to fire it across the diamond 100% of the time if there is a slow runner coming out of the box.

In real life, OF and runners take same approach on balls in the gap or in the corner.

Two things from the video that contradict above.

1. Pollock's speed is 75. He is not slow and he should have easily made it to 2B and it should not have been that close, period.

2. However, the LF should have also not thrown all the way to 2B. In real life he would have fired it into the SS (relay man) who would have looked back to 2B as Pollock was pulling in. This would have been more realistic, made the play not close at all, and prevented Pollock from sliding on a clear double.

Tremendous strides have been made to address people's complaints that the fields play too small. As we know now it was not that the fields play too small but rather the fielders took perfect routes too balls, always threw the ball hard, and the ball physics caused the balls to hang too long in the air.

All of these were addressed and it seems like the fields are not playing as small as they used to. But this is one example of something that still conjures those same feelings.

I am hoping this is just because this is not final build, but this is something that has been a problem in the series in general and I was hoping the new fielding AI would remedy this, but it does not seem to be the case.

Link below, 1:40 mark:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-gameplay.html

Wrong. Apologies for the ad in front of the video but I don't run MLB.com

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63106348/v1210898983/ws2016-gm7-chisenhall-gets-schwarber-at-second/?query=out%2Bat%2Bsecond

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

Wrong. Apologies for the ad in front of the video but I don't run MLB.com

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6310634...%2Bat%2Bsecond

1. Schwarber had knee surgery after shredding his knee like pulled pork and this was his 4th game back since April (video is from November). He might be slowest person on planet right now, definitely slowest player on either team at the time of this game....Bad example.

2. The ball did not get to the corner, it was to the right of the RF but definitely not in the corner. The ball bounced right back to Chisenhall, who scoped it on bounce of the wall and turned and fired to nab, again....The slowest guy in the building.

Again.....Just how the infielders will take their time when Schwaber grounds out to them, the outfielders should take their time when they field ball off the wall and runner is already half way to 2B and they have plus speed.....The OF should be smart enough to concede the double and focus on keeping runner on 2B, you do that by hitting your cutoff man.

From LF the ball is in front of the runner as he moves into 2B, if cutoff man has the ball he will pull up and not round the base.

I am not saying there shouldn't be attempts to nail the guy going to 2B, what I am saying is there shouldn't be attempts on "guaranteed doubles" that are down the line, in corner, with a plus runner, who busted it out the box.

[tessl]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

1. Schwarber had knee surgery after shredding his knee like pulled pork and this was his 4th game back since April (video is from November). He might be slowest person on planet right now, definitely slowest player on either team at the time of this game....Bad example.

2. The ball did not get to the corner, it was to the right of the RF but definitely not in the corner. The ball bounced right back to Chisenhall, who scoped it on bounce of the wall and turned and fired to nab, again....The slowest guy in the building.

Again.....Just how the infielders will take their time when Schwaber grounds out to them, the outfielders should take their time when they field ball off the wall and runner is already half way to 2B and they have plus speed.....The OF should be smart enough to concede the double and focus on keeping runner on 2B, you do that by hitting your cutoff man.

From LF the ball is in front of the runner as he moves into 2B, if cutoff man has the ball he will pull up and not round the base.

I am not saying there shouldn't be attempts to nail the guy going to 2B, what I am saying is there shouldn't be attempts on "guaranteed doubles" that are down the line, in corner, with a plus runner, who busted it out the box.

The announcer said "shot into the right field corner by Schwarber" and Pollock was easily safe at second. The second baseman was 6 feet from the bag when Pollock's hand was on the bag and the ball was 15 feet from the second baseman. The second baseman didn't even attempt a tag. It wasn't a close play. Looks perfectly realistic to me.

https://youtu.be/LrTmMMdvnK4?t=108

Me thinks thou dost protest to much.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

The announcer said "shot into the right field corner by Schwarber" and Pollock was easily safe at second. The second baseman was 6 feet from the bag when Pollock's hand was on the bag and the ball was 15 feet from the second baseman. The second baseman didn't even attempt a tag. It wasn't a close play. Looks perfectly realistic to me.

https://youtu.be/LrTmMMdvnK4?t=108

Me thinks thou dost protest to much.

I can see we are two different people which is why we don't agree on this topic. You don't pay attention to too much detail....

Announcer said "shot into right field corner...." yet in WATCHING the video YOU posted, the ball was NOT in the corner.

Additionally, above I explained why the 2B did not attempt the tag (he was out of position in relation to the play attempted). Had he been standing on bag that's a bang bang play. He's not standing on bag, because he shouldn't as that ball shouldn't have been thrown to 2B, on a single hop, and force a 75 speed runner to slide.

This is all my opinion and it's what I am looking for in the game. If devs agree and can fix it great, if they disagree and/or can't, the game will still be great and hopefully I can tune it to my liking with sliders.

[tessl]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

I can see we are two different people which is why we don't agree on this topic. You don't pay attention to too much detail....

Announcer said "shot into right field corner...." yet in WATCHING the video YOU posted, the ball was NOT in the corner.

Additionally, above I explained why the 2B did not attempt the tag (he was out of position in relation to the play attempted). Had he been standing on bag that's a bang bang play. He's not standing on bag, because he shouldn't as that ball shouldn't have been thrown to 2B, on a single hop, and force a 75 speed runner to slide.

This is all my opinion and it's what I am looking for in the game. If devs agree and can fix it great, if they disagree and/or can't, the game will still be great and hopefully I can tune it to my liking with sliders.

You are wrong for several reasons. Look at the video.

https://youtu.be/LrTmMMdvnK4?t=108

The ball was 20 feet from the bag and the runner was already on the bag. It would not have been a bang-bang play. The standard rule is throw the ball to second base, it's baseball 101. The only time that throw goes to third/cutoff is if the outfielder doesn't field it cleanly or there is a runner on first base.

Meanwhile...

https://youtu.be/4xHUDMq3C5U?t=114

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Updated Fielding - Outfielders

You are wrong for several reasons. Look at the video.

https://youtu.be/LrTmMMdvnK4?t=108

The ball was 20 feet from the bag and the runner was already on the bag. It would not have been a bang-bang play. The standard rule is throw the ball to second base, it's baseball 101. The only time that throw goes to third/cutoff is if the outfielder doesn't field it cleanly or there is a runner on first base.

Meanwhile...

https://youtu.be/4xHUDMq3C5U?t=114

1. 2B was not 20 feet from bag....in this scenario being literal counts
2. You are giving me a highlight reel play from an elite OF as an example...this is the other end of the spectrum in comparison to the Schwarber example.

Spinning in circles here guy...
As I said our opinions differ here, thats okay.