Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

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  • Caulfield
    Hall Of Fame
    • Apr 2011
    • 10986

    #16
    Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

    Originally posted by WaitTilNextYear
    Just as a matter of logic, I'm not sure how you can even place a percentage on OS members who also buy The Show. It could be a lot larger or smaller than 1% of the entire market. There are many hundreds of thousands of OS members (897,660 according to OS). I've seen somewhere around 1 million units of MLB The Show 16 were sold (Ramone would know better if that's accurate or not). Since there's no "are you an OS member?" question when purchasing the game, it's an unknowable question as to how these numbers fit together.
    I would imagine OS has relayed to the Show Community Manager how much of that 897660 were considered 'active members'. I bet less than 1500.
    Which is probably roughly around .0015%
    OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

    A Work in Progress

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    • WaitTilNextYear
      Go Cubs Go
      • Mar 2013
      • 16830

      #17
      Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

      Originally posted by Caulfield
      I would imagine OS has relayed to the Show Community Manager how much of that 897660 were considered 'active members'. I bet less than 1500.
      Which is probably roughly around .0015%
      Yeah, but even non-active members can still lurk the forums, be influenced by the conversation, and/or purchase the game. Moreover, I'd be willing to bet money there are several times the amount of members out there that find and use info on Operation Sports on a semi-regular basis (I found this site myself through a Google search for Madden draft class info back in 2012/2013). Some people are probably too lazy to create an account and/or voice their opinion. According to Quantcast, OS got 801k unique visits last month. Some months, depending on what games are out, that can be over one million uniques.

      My point is there isn't really a way of knowing how accurate the numbers are in this case because there's no data linking an OS visit to a purchase of the game. Certainly it could be modeled or inferred, but it's not really important enough to do that.

      Now back to your original programming!
      Chicago Cubs | Chicago Bulls | Green Bay Packers | Michigan Wolverines

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      • skrody
        Rookie
        • Oct 2007
        • 219

        #18
        Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

        well here's a thought, OS might not be responsible for 99% of sales, but how much % is OS responsible for in terms of game feedback?

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        • Caulfield
          Hall Of Fame
          • Apr 2011
          • 10986

          #19
          Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

          Originally posted by skrody
          well here's a thought, OS might not be responsible for 99% of sales, but how much % is OS responsible for in terms of game feedback?
          yeah, I think theres more of us gathered here than any other place except facebook twitter etc but its easy to get lost in the mix there.
          even more here on OS than shownation probably
          OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

          A Work in Progress

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          • BlacknBlue
            Rookie
            • Dec 2015
            • 317

            #20
            Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

            We are veering off topic a bit here.

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            • Caulfield
              Hall Of Fame
              • Apr 2011
              • 10986

              #21
              Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

              I wonder if a perceived bad image of the Expos leaving Montreal bears any weight on MLB not wanting the Show to have those throwbacks in Washington or if it has more to do with wanting the other uni's in those slots more.
              OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

              A Work in Progress

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              • merchant1874
                MVP
                • Aug 2009
                • 1337

                #22
                Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                If we are less than half a percent of the community then why even bother about us?

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                • Caulfield
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 10986

                  #23
                  Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                  Originally posted by merchant1874
                  If we are less than half a percent of the community then why even bother about us?
                  because the Show is about quality, not quantity

                  also, its interesting to note the Brooklyn Robins 1915 unis are in 17, so there is some precedent with Expo-like similarities.
                  Last edited by Caulfield; 02-25-2017, 08:14 PM.
                  OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

                  A Work in Progress

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                  • Perfect Zero
                    1B, OF
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 4012

                    #24
                    Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                    Originally posted by Caulfield
                    because the Show is about quality, not quantity

                    also, its interesting to note the Brooklyn Robins 1915 unis are in 17, so there is some precedent with Expo-like similarities.
                    The Robins and Superbas are the same exact team as the Dodgers. Brooklyn didn't have an official nickname until the 20's
                    Rangers - Cowboys - Aggies - Stars - Mavericks

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                    • Caulfield
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 10986

                      #25
                      Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                      Originally posted by Perfect Zero
                      The Robins and Superbas are the same exact team as the Dodgers. Brooklyn didn't have an official nickname until the 20's
                      Oh, I'm aware. And arent the Montreal Expos the same exact team as the Nationals?
                      Which is what I'm alluding to in my previous post.
                      OSFM23 - Building Better Baseball - OSFM23

                      A Work in Progress

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                      • Perfect Zero
                        1B, OF
                        • Jun 2005
                        • 4012

                        #26
                        Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                        Originally posted by Caulfield
                        Oh, I'm aware. And arent the Montreal Expos the same exact team as the Nationals?
                        Which is what I'm alluding to in my previous post.
                        It depends on who owns their rights.
                        Rangers - Cowboys - Aggies - Stars - Mavericks

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                        • Bullit
                          Bacon is Better
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 5004

                          #27
                          Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                          This might help with some more information on the subject...

                          You Can Go Home Again What happens to a professional sports team’s trademark when a franchise leaves town, decides to rebrand and change its name, and the jilted city wants to bring home its former…



                          Basically and I mean very basically. MLB owns the Trademarks for the Montreal Expos. The do not officially exist as an entity anymore. You can buy hats and jerseys etc. from MLB but as there is no entity of a team there is no listing in the style guide for a uniform to be made and SDS is bound by the Style Guide.

                          Teams that have come from other teams ie Brooklyn Dodgers to LA Dodgers never relinquished the Trademarks and embraced the past as part of the ongoing entity as a team. That is a lot of the reason that some teams have older or past team uniforms and the teams like the Expos don't.

                          For The Show to have the Expo's in the game it is my understanding of this article they would have to make a separate deal with the MLB for the rights to the Trademarks of the Montreal Expos. I could be misreading the article entirely but it seems pretty straight forward to me.
                          Last edited by Bullit; 02-25-2017, 09:29 PM.
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                          My heart and soul hurt for your lost presence in my life.

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                          • sva91
                            MVP
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 2019

                            #28
                            Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                            Originally posted by Bullit
                            This might help with some more information on the subject...

                            You Can Go Home Again What happens to a professional sports team’s trademark when a franchise leaves town, decides to rebrand and change its name, and the jilted city wants to bring home its former…



                            Basically and I mean very basically. MLB owns the Trademarks for the Montreal Expos. The do not officially exist as an entity anymore. You can buy hats and jerseys etc. from MLB but as there is no entity of a team there is no listing in the style guide for a uniform to be made and SDS is bound by the Style Guide.

                            Teams that have come from other teams ie Brooklyn Dodgers to LA Dodgers never relinquished the Trademarks and embraced the past as part of the ongoing entity as a team. That is a lot of the reason that some teams have older or past team uniforms and the teams like the Expos don't.

                            For The Show to have the Expo's in the game it is my understanding of this article they would have to make a separate deal with the MLB for the rights to the Trademarks of the Montreal Expos. I could be misreading the article entirely but it seems pretty straight forward to me.
                            Ahh I hate to go down this road... But maybe SCEA pay the MLB for the license and then charge us for DLC? I know it's not that easy to add unis in game, but if SCEA doesn't want to pay(understandably so) for something MLB won't provide, just charge us, the consumer. I'm pretty sure you can get a decent amount back. But I have no idea what SCEA would have to pay for license, I'm just assuming it wouldn't be outrageous.
                            Last edited by sva91; 02-26-2017, 12:33 AM.

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                            • SchwarBear12
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2017
                              • 83

                              #29
                              Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                              Originally posted by Bullit
                              This might help with some more information on the subject...

                              You Can Go Home Again What happens to a professional sports team’s trademark when a franchise leaves town, decides to rebrand and change its name, and the jilted city wants to bring home its former…



                              Basically and I mean very basically. MLB owns the Trademarks for the Montreal Expos. The do not officially exist as an entity anymore. You can buy hats and jerseys etc. from MLB but as there is no entity of a team there is no listing in the style guide for a uniform to be made and SDS is bound by the Style Guide.

                              Teams that have come from other teams ie Brooklyn Dodgers to LA Dodgers never relinquished the Trademarks and embraced the past as part of the ongoing entity as a team. That is a lot of the reason that some teams have older or past team uniforms and the teams like the Expos don't.

                              For The Show to have the Expo's in the game it is my understanding of this article they would have to make a separate deal with the MLB for the rights to the Trademarks of the Montreal Expos. I could be misreading the article entirely but it seems pretty straight forward to me.

                              All valid points, but again it comes back to RBI Baseball. Why do they have them? And again, the only response is it being an in-house.

                              So again it comes back to the Washington Nationals disassociating themselves with the Expos.

                              Ramone mentioned a year or two ago in a Twitch stream specifically, "even if we got the license for the Expos jerseys, where would we put them? There's nowhere for them to go" or something to that effect. I guess you could get the license, and use it as a DD/Missions bonus for unlocking something, and thus try to apply it to the obviously 'growing' DD aspect of the game to sell to the brass upstairs.

                              Because they are bound by the Style Guide, and because of what you put up, plus past statements, I highly doubt (for whatever reason) that the Nationals will ever be associated with the Expos -- in-game. Senators, yes, because it's obvious the Nationals want to pretend they were the Senators at one time, inviting past sluggers like Howard and others to games, and try to target that D.C. fan base that loved the Senators, no different than the Blue Jays are trying to do with the left over loyal cult of Expos fans still left in Montreal.

                              And again, it comes back to -- why RBI Baseball, and not The Show?


                              Maybe the future is thinking outside the box. Like next year, instead of Ken Griffey Jr. as the cover athlete, The Show signs Pedro Martinez or Vladimir Guerrero to be the cover athlete as a 'Legend'.

                              Then, like with The Show 17 New Era Hat, if you take Pedro and/or Vladdy into DD, and unlock them, and unlock Expos jerseys, and wear those jerseys in DD, you'll get ticket bonuses and/or other Missions bonuses.


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                              • SchwarBear12
                                Banned
                                • Jan 2017
                                • 83

                                #30
                                Re: Throwbacks, Montreal Expos, and the Style Guide

                                Originally posted by Caulfield
                                I wonder if a perceived bad image of the Expos leaving Montreal bears any weight on MLB not wanting the Show to have those throwbacks in Washington or if it has more to do with wanting the other uni's in those slots more.

                                I highly doubt they would advertise the crap out of RBI Baseball, AND promote fake advertising interviews with 'so-called' fans, loving RBI Baseball, because they can "play as their Expos again!"

                                MLB knows there's value in that Expos brand. That's why they are keeping a very VERY close eye on these Exhibition games every year in Montreal, promoting all these recent documentaries (at least one a year) on some aspect of the Expos moments, such as the creation, the fall, 1981, 1994, 2002, and of course in recent years, players such as Pedro & Unit, and now Tim Raines, all at one time Expos going into the Hall of Fame (Raines as an Expo), plus a couple years ago in Cincinnati at the All-Star Game when the All-Time Top-4 players were revealed for the Nationals they were ALL Expos.


                                If MLB is trying to bury the Expos, they're doing a horrible job of it. If anything, they've given a revival and resurgence to a dead brand name.

                                I remember in 2004, by the end of the year, the water was so soured on the Expos leaving for D.C. and at that team I grabbed a brand-new 2004 BP/Spring Training Expos hat, literally for $5 bucks, with tags. They couldn't give them away. They were a joke. They were trying to get rid of all of it. Full clearance.

                                Now?

                                Most sports merchandising sites have some Expos merchandise. Usually at full price, and rarely on sale. Someone is buying it, and MLB is getting all of the profits off of it.



                                But I will agree with you on this Caufield, MLB has made a concerted effort to associate the Senators with the Nationals and the Washington fanbase. Mainly because it makes financial sense. No different than associating the Pilots with the Mariners, when the Pilots are (to this day) the Milwaukee Brewers.


                                I wonder if MLB is being strategic in how the Expos are used, because they know Montreal is in the Top-2 choices for an expansion franchise and/or relocation, and that they are currently prepping for an Expos return sometime in the coming years, and are wanting to distance the brand from anybody including the Nats or Blue Jays.



                                What i'm waiting for is us to have this argument 5 years from now, when the Montreal Expos are in the game as an actual team with throwbacks, and we're barking at The Show for not including 'Tampa Bay Devil Rays' throwbacks (wink wink, nudge nudge).

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