Prospect Progression

[bigsteve15]

Re: Prospect Progression

Ah! That's true, I didn't think of the scouting being a reason for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Yep. For outfielders I like to pick one hitting tool and one fielding tool, usually arm strength. I can live with lower accuracy but if you don't have at least average arm strength you're useless as an outfielder lol.

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[335TDC]

Re: Prospect Progression

Not to be a downer, but attribute distribution in prospects is at the core of what's wrong/should be improved with Franchise. It seems to infect all sports games' franchise modes -- when I played Madden, RB's would have 98 speed and 70 acceleration, stuff like that. I wish the Show would put more emphasis on this -- prospects should have really low Vision and Discipline; Power doesn't change all that much, neither does speed. Arm strength shouldn't, but accuracy could, and reaction is also a big area of development.

The WORST, though, is the horrible Durability ratings. Those you just have to edit. Guys with 3's who tire after playing ONE GAME.

C'mon, SDS...get on this.

[BillPeener]

Re: Prospect Progression

Experience. I've yet to see a prospect do poorly in the minors while his attributes skyrocket. Meanwhile those that do have rapidly rising attributes tend to be the ones who are doing well.

I wonder if the player is doing poorly because his ratings aren't skyrocketing? Maybe the players are doing well because their ratings are rising?

I haven't progressed far enough in '17 to see how players progress, but it seems like a chicken / egg thing. How certain are we that progression is dependent on performance? And if so, how dependent is it?

Do players still progress in A ball even though they don't play any games?

Yes they do.

So, is it a situation where Single-A players progress at a rate of X, and then bad performance in AA / AAA changes the rate to X/2, and good performance changes it to 2X? I'm making up numbers, but is that the general idea? Performance can help / hurt, but progression still occurs if the player doesn't play?

PS: This is exactly what was I was talking about regarding the mysteries of gameplay vs the mysteries of players. It's frustrating that we have to spend all this time figuring out how player progression works when, hypothetically, a developer could give us the formulas in a matter of minutes. I'm not saying that's their job, but it's frustrating that we spend so much time on this and not more time evaluating players like in real baseball.

[countryboy]

Re: Prospect Progression

So, is it a situation where Single-A players progress at a rate of X, and then bad performance in AA / AAA changes the rate to X/2, and good performance changes it to 2X? I'm making up numbers, but is that the general idea? Performance can help / hurt, but progression still occurs if the player doesn't play?

Progression can still occur due to training. And yes, performance effects progression as well.

And Single A players do play, you just don't see the games. But they will accumulate stats for Single A play.

[TheWarmWind]

Re: Prospect Progression

A agree BillPeener, this could be a chicken and an egg situation. I disagree about the devs telling us their secrets though. It'd ruin some of the magic for me. In fact, if there were a no ratings mode, where the attributes I saw were NOT real but just my scout's and coaches estimates, I would jump all over that mode. I use attributes as guidelines anyways, they aren't dogma to me.

[335TDC]

Re: Prospect Progression

So, is it a situation where Single-A players progress at a rate of X, and then bad performance in AA / AAA changes the rate to X/2, and good performance changes it to 2X? I'm making up numbers, but is that the general idea? Performance can help / hurt, but progression still occurs if the player doesn't play?

PS: This is exactly what was I was talking about regarding the mysteries of gameplay vs the mysteries of players. It's frustrating that we have to spend all this time figuring out how player progression works when, hypothetically, a developer could give us the formulas in a matter of minutes. I'm not saying that's their job, but it's frustrating that we spend so much time on this and not more time evaluating players like in real baseball.

Those are good questions, but I think that an A player still "plays," it's just that the game doesn't support A leagues. I know for a fact that performance affects progression in MLB, but I guess the question is, for a prospect, what's the performance vs. potential mix? I'm running an Orioles franchise with kids (default roster has some 18 yo fictional studs, I rolled a new chise until they all had good potentials, then simmed one year), so I'll know more soon.

One interesting note: putting a player in A disqualifies him from the Top 50 Prospect tag. Noticed this when a put an A potential guy I had in AA, the tag popped on immediately.

[BetteRedthnDead]

Re: Prospect Progression

I wonder if the player is doing poorly because his ratings aren't skyrocketing? Maybe the players are doing well because their ratings are rising?

I haven't progressed far enough in '17 to see how players progress, but it seems like a chicken / egg thing. How certain are we that progression is dependent on performance? And if so, how dependent is it?




So, is it a situation where Single-A players progress at a rate of X, and then bad performance in AA / AAA changes the rate to X/2, and good performance changes it to 2X? I'm making up numbers, but is that the general idea? Performance can help / hurt, but progression still occurs if the player doesn't play?

PS: This is exactly what was I was talking about regarding the mysteries of gameplay vs the mysteries of players. It's frustrating that we have to spend all this time figuring out how player progression works when, hypothetically, a developer could give us the formulas in a matter of minutes. I'm not saying that's their job, but it's frustrating that we spend so much time on this and not more time evaluating players like in real baseball.

I am also frustrated by some of the mysteries of gameplay. Why aren't certain ratings even more clearly outlined? Like I remember reading somewhere about what vision/discipline do when you play/sim, but why can't that just be easily accessible? Very low effort from SDS standpoint and doesn't take away "magic" imo as it really just tells you what you're looking at. How can I say I value discipline over vision if I don't even know what they do?

Obligatory - I love the game and won't stop playing, so the devs have no incentive to improve anything related to franchise

[335TDC]

Re: Prospect Progression

I am also frustrated by some of the mysteries of gameplay. Why aren't certain ratings even more clearly outlined? Like I remember reading somewhere about what vision/discipline do when you play/sim, but why can't that just be easily accessible? Very low effort from SDS standpoint and doesn't take away "magic" imo as it really just tells you what you're looking at. How can I say I value discipline over vision if I don't even know what they do?

Obligatory - I love the game and won't stop playing, so the devs have no incentive to improve anything related to franchise

Dude, it tells you what Discipline does right in the game: it determines effectiveness of check swings. And Vision determines how big the PCI is or, if you use timing/directional like me, your chances of putting the bat on the ball vs. swing and miss.

[BillPeener]

Re: Prospect Progression

And Single A players do play, you just don't see the games. But they will accumulate stats for Single A play.

Ah ok, thanks.

In fact, if there were a no ratings mode, where the attributes I saw were NOT real but just my scout's and coaches estimates, I would jump all over that mode. I use attributes as guidelines anyways, they aren't dogma to me.

I'm a huge fan of no visible ratings, or at least vague ones based off of variable coaching / scouting / player reports. Accuracy of said reports depends on the ratings of the coaches, scouts, and maybe a sincerity rating for players. For example, a player comes to you saying he poked himself in the eye before the game, so his vision might be lower (and you don't know how much lower). He has a high sincerity rating, whereas a guy who doesn't tell his manager about a fall down the stairs at home has a low sincerity rating. He might tell you, "I'm ready to play!" when his bruised back lowers his power by 5 points.

Real baseball uses ratings and point values, but they're entirely based on guesstimates, the eye test, analytics, scouting, and so on. I want us spending more time discussing how much of a drop in visibility we think is happening when a player gives us a concerning report and less time discussing whether the game even accounts for that.

the question is, for a prospect, what's the performance vs. potential mix? I'm running an Orioles franchise with kids (default roster has some 18 yo fictional studs, I rolled a new chise until they all had good potentials, then simmed one year), so I'll know more soon.

I'd like that to know the mix, too. Looking forward to hearing what you find.

One interesting note: putting a player in A disqualifies him from the Top 50 Prospect tag. Noticed this when a put an A potential guy I had in AA, the tag popped on immediately.

Good to know. Thanks.

[BillPeener]

Re: Prospect Progression

Dude, it tells you what Discipline does right in the game: it determines effectiveness of check swings. And Vision determines how big the PCI is or, if you use timing/directional like me, your chances of putting the bat on the ball vs. swing and miss.

I think BetteRedthnDead meant that we don't know just how much discipline affects checked swings nor just how much vision affects the size of the PCI. I could be wrong, but similarly to the performance / potential mix, I'm interested in knowing exactly much these ratings affect the game. I'm sure it's a concrete, stable number based on particular formulas in the code.

[335TDC]

Re: Prospect Progression

I think BetteRedthnDead meant that we don't know just how much discipline affects checked swings nor just how much vision affects the size of the PCI. I could be wrong, but similarly to the performance / potential mix, I'm interested in knowing exactly much these ratings affect the game. I'm sure it's a concrete, stable number based on particular formulas in the code.

No, I don't think so. The mix of how they all work together is a mystery (e.g., high contact/low vision on a squared up ball vs. the opposite), but Vision determines PCI and Discipline determines check swing effectiveness, period.

Also, I like you BillPeener, but a "sincerity" rating? The interactions you're talking about are more like paper and pencil D&D twistaplot stuff....

[Caulfield]

Re: Prospect Progression

the incentive is to make even more money.some of the devs maybe living comfortably
but you cant convince me that if they had a chance to increase profits they would just sit back and say no thanks, i'm full.
#greed is good

Obligatory - I love the game and won't stop playing, so the devs have no incentive to improve anything related to franchise

and anyone who thinks the egg came before the chicken is just plain crazy.

[BillPeener]

Re: Prospect Progression

The mix of how they all work together is a mystery (e.g., high contact/low vision on a squared up ball vs. the opposite), but Vision determines PCI and Discipline determines check swing effectiveness, period.

The mix of how they all work together is a mystery to you, but the developers know exactly how they mix together. Vision determines PCI to a particular degree. What is that degree? How much smaller is the PCI from 99 to 98? Is the difference between 99 and 98 the same as 51 to 50? I'd like to know.

Also, I like you BillPeener, but a "sincerity" rating? The interactions you're talking about are more like paper and pencil D&D twistaplot stuff....

What's more realistic:

1. Your starter says he feels great and is ready for today's game. The truth is that he has a sore back, but since he's an upcoming FA, he doesn't want anyone to know. His ratings see a slight dip, but you don't know about it until your pitching coach sends a report saying "His fastball isn't as sharp as usual." You're now aware of a control / velocity issue, but you don't know why. With physicals / trainer features, you could have the starter looked at by the trainer to discover the problem, which may or may not be found by the trainer, depending on his ratings.

2. The game tells you your starter has a sore back and therefore has a -4 drop on all pitching ratings.

I don't mean to straw man you, so if those 2 options aren't what you had in mind, then what's the 3rd?

[TheWarmWind]

Re: Prospect Progression

Also, I like you BillPeener, but a "sincerity" rating? The interactions you're talking about are more like paper and pencil D&D twistaplot stuff....

you say that like it's a bad thing...

[BillPeener]

Re: Prospect Progression

Player personality is a huge factor in real life sports, and with all due respect, it's head-scratching to see someone argue against implementing it in a game that's meant to emulate reality.