Stamina Progression

[KGIY94]

Hi All,

MLB 17 is the first I've bought since 13, and the biggest change I noticed is that pitcher stamina does not progress at all! I understand not being able to upgrade speed, but young pitchers in real life are stretched out way more than they were as 18-22 year olds.

It's just frustrating that a guy like Josh Hader's stamina can never get to 70 and consequently no 200 inning seasons.

Tbh, when you sim a bunch of seasons like I do the progression is all over the place and confusing (we all know about the ultra-regression issues for years). I like how there are higher ranges of outcomes for player potential, but I miss the emails that tell you when potential increases or decreases.

But anyway, is the stamina thing a bug or a design choice?

[countryboy]

Re: Stamina Progression

Hi All,

MLB 17 is the first I've bought since 13, and the biggest change I noticed is that pitcher stamina does not progress at all! I understand not being able to upgrade speed, but young pitchers in real life are stretched out way more than they were as 18-22 year olds.

It's just frustrating that a guy like Josh Hader's stamina can never get to 70 and consequently no 200 inning seasons.

Tbh, when you sim a bunch of seasons like I do the progression is all over the place and confusing (we all know about the ultra-regression issues for years). I like how there are higher ranges of outcomes for player potential, but I miss the emails that tell you when potential increases or decreases.

But anyway, is the stamina thing a bug or a design choice?

It is a design choice. I edit stamina personally based on potential:

A = 85 or above
B = 80-84
C = 75-79
D = 70-74
F = 69 or below

Consequently I'll also adjust lower stamina guys to be relievers at times, spot starters. There really isn't a concrete formula that I follow, just how I would possibly handle things if I was managing that organization.

[tessl]

Re: Stamina Progression

Hi All,

MLB 17 is the first I've bought since 13, and the biggest change I noticed is that pitcher stamina does not progress at all! I understand not being able to upgrade speed, but young pitchers in real life are stretched out way more than they were as 18-22 year olds.

It's just frustrating that a guy like Josh Hader's stamina can never get to 70 and consequently no 200 inning seasons.

Tbh, when you sim a bunch of seasons like I do the progression is all over the place and confusing (we all know about the ultra-regression issues for years). I like how there are higher ranges of outcomes for player potential, but I miss the emails that tell you when potential increases or decreases.

But anyway, is the stamina thing a bug or a design choice?

Progression has changed and not for the better. Unfortunately with only one developer assigned to franchise I wouldn't look for improvement any time soon. I guess we will find out either next week in the franchise stream or when the game is released.

[KGIY94]

Re: Stamina Progression

It is a design choice. I edit stamina personally based on potential:

A = 85 or above
B = 80-84
C = 75-79
D = 70-74
F = 69 or below

Consequently I'll also adjust lower stamina guys to be relievers at times, spot starters. There really isn't a concrete formula that I follow, just how I would possibly handle things if I was managing that organization.

I admire your enthusiasm, but you shouldn't have to go through that. It would be one thing if some prospects started out with high stamina ratings, but they're usually so low compared to the real players. It's like stamina is meant to be improved but just...can't.

[countryboy]

Re: Stamina Progression

I admire your enthusiasm, but you shouldn't have to go through that. It would be one thing if some prospects started out with high stamina ratings, but they're usually so low compared to the real players. It's like stamina is meant to be improved but just...can't.

I wish that stamina progressed and that starters had higher stamina, but in the meantime I'll just use my unscientific formula...

[wellred]

Re: Stamina Progression

It's an annoyance, but, the MLB game is going in that direction anyways. There's just too many hard throwing effective guys in bullpens these days and too many numbers to suggest that going through the batting order more 2-3 times with a starter is in most cases not the optimal use of your staff.

I'd even like to see a team try to start one of your elite relievers off for the first inning or maybe the first couple of innings, then bring in a more conventional starter type to get you through the middle innings, and then turn it over to your setup guy/closer. It might give you a better opportunity to score first, as such increasing your chances of winning and dictating the pace of the game.

If you look at it with more of a contemporary view or view moving forward on what teams could start to do, rather than just conventional view of what a SP is supposed to be able to do, it's less of an issue I think.

[dran1984]

Re: Stamina Progression

It's an annoyance, but, the MLB game is going in that direction anyways. There's just too many hard throwing effective guys in bullpens these days and too many numbers to suggest that going through the batting order more 2-3 times with a starter is in most cases not the optimal use of your staff.

I'd even like to see a team try to start one of your elite relievers off for the first inning or maybe the first couple of innings, then bring in a more conventional starter type to get you through the middle innings, and then turn it over to your setup guy/closer. It might give you a better opportunity to score first, as such increasing your chances of winning and dictating the pace of the game.

If you look at it with more of a contemporary view or view moving forward on what teams could start to do, rather than just conventional view of what a SP is supposed to be able to do, it's less of an issue I think.

Who are you? Brian Kenny?

#Bullpening

[wellred]

Re: Stamina Progression

Who are you? Brian Kenny?

#Bullpening

I could be any of the managers for any of the playoff teams last year. Did you watch?

Anyways, bullpening engaged.

[dran1984]

Re: Stamina Progression

I'd even like to see a team try to start one of your elite relievers off for the first inning or maybe the first couple of innings, then bring in a more conventional starter type to get you through the middle innings, and then turn it over to your setup guy/closer. It might give you a better opportunity to score first, as such increasing your chances of winning and dictating the pace of the game.

I could be any of the managers for any of the playoff teams last year. Did you watch?

Anyways, bullpening engaged.

This is the part I was referring to. Kenny has suggested this multiple times on the MLB Network. So far no one has actually done it. However to your point, what works in the playoffs won't work in 162 game schedule. Those same playoff managers have acknowledged this as well.

[wellred]

Re: Stamina Progression

So far no one has actually done it.

lol No kidding. Well it's great you're to tell us this stuff, I had no idea. Or maybe that's why I said it'd be neat if some team tried it.

But speaking of pointing out the obvious, managers aren't in a hurry to tire out their bullpen to win a game that matters the fraction of the amount that a playoff game does. My point had nothing to do with what is or isn't feasible in the regular season, I never mentioned that, so it has nothing to do with anything. My point, as I said, was the analytics suggest it's not a great idea to allow your starting pitcher to go through a batting order the 3rd time in many circumstances if your intent is to win that game.

Simple as that really, and the managers I'm talking about do understand that, and if the game matters enough they will avoid it as circumstances allow (as with anything in baseball, it's situational, that's the managers job to go through that thought process.)

There's a lot of reasons why starting an elite level reliever for the first 1 or 2 innings could allow a starter type to get deeper into the game and facilitate a better outing. But obviously you're not here to debate the merits of the idea, it's just, hey nobody has done it. Again, thanks for letting us know lol.

[KBLover]

Re: Stamina Progression

It is a design choice. I edit stamina personally based on potential:

A = 85 or above
B = 80-84
C = 75-79
D = 70-74
F = 69 or below

Consequently I'll also adjust lower stamina guys to be relievers at times, spot starters. There really isn't a concrete formula that I follow, just how I would possibly handle things if I was managing that organization.

I do the same thing, especially with the marginal SP Stamina guys (50-60 for me) and turn some of them into relievers, especially if their repetoire is like 4SFB, 2SFB, SL.

I'll do it for velocity and movement, especially if I do role switch though even when I don't.

It's silly to me that pitchers can never gain/lose movement or velocity.

[dran1984]

Re: Stamina Progression

lol No kidding. Well it's great you're to tell us this stuff, I had no idea. Or maybe that's why I said it'd be neat if some team tried it.

But speaking of pointing out the obvious, managers aren't in a hurry to tire out their bullpen to win a game that matters the fraction of the amount that a playoff game does. My point had nothing to do with what is or isn't feasible in the regular season, I never mentioned that, so it has nothing to do with anything. My point, as I said, was the analytics suggest it's not a great idea to allow your starting pitcher to go through a batting order the 3rd time in many circumstances if your intent is to win that game.

Simple as that really, and the managers I'm talking about do understand that, and if the game matters enough they will avoid it as circumstances allow (as with anything in baseball, it's situational, that's the managers job to go through that thought process.)

There's a lot of reasons why starting an elite level reliever for the first 1 or 2 innings could allow a starter type to get deeper into the game and facilitate a better outing. But obviously you're not here to debate the merits of the idea, it's just, hey nobody has done it. Again, thanks for letting us know lol.

It matters if your talking regular season or post season. You said yourself that "managers aren't in a hurry to tire out their bullpen" in the regular season. That's the reason this won't happen in the 162 game schedule. If we are talking post season the idea sounds better however, players are not robots and there is a mental aspect and a comfort level of coming out of the pen versus starting a game. Just because you have an elite reliever he may not produce the same results in a different role.

The theory works fine on paper but there a several reasons why it may not be a feasible plan.

[wellred]

Re: Stamina Progression

It matters if your talking regular season or post season. You said yourself that "managers aren't in a hurry to tire out their bullpen" in the regular season. That's the reason this won't happen in the 162 game schedule. If we are talking post season the idea sounds better however, players are not robots and there is a mental aspect and a comfort level of coming out of the pen versus starting a game. Just because you have an elite reliever he may not produce the same results in a different role.

The theory works fine on paper but there a several reasons why it may not be a feasible plan.

Alright, to your first point, how is starting a reliever in the first inning going to quickly tire out your bullpen? If you use him every second or third day in that role, exclusively, he's not going to be pitching any more than he ordinarily would anyways. It's not like the idea is to start the same reliever every single day or something, you would rotate guys in that spot. It has the potential to be less taxing on a bullpen over the course of a 162 game season. If the reliever can handle multiple innings in that spot, lets just say maximum 2 for the sake of it. Your "starter" comes in, gets through his 5+ innings and you're winning, boom you're at your set up man and your closer, no different than how any other standard game goes or how many innings your bullpen would throw on average. And if you're well ahead or behind at that point, you have more flexibility on what you can do with your long guy as far as leaving him in.

As for the whole mental/intangible thing, that's inarguable because you can't really quantify it, if you can't quantify it's impossible to debate it because the terms aren't clearly defined. There would be adjustments you'd have to make to approach a game like this, for everyone involved, but that's what baseball is about.

There's a lot of things that work well on paper that don't work out in baseball on any given day of the season. That doesn't mean you discount what works on paper the next time just because it didn't work out the previous time. You go with the data, and also the situation, that's all you can do.

Anyways, this is kinda off topic, I was mainly just saying, hey don't worry about stamina so much. Yeah it sucks that you can't improve it for guys and that it regresses a little every year, but my point was just trying to think outside the box a little in your franchise and imagine that is just the way the game is evolving, and roll with it. Or don't, just a thought.

[Caulfield]

Re: Stamina Progression

are there any drawbacks to editing any relievers who have a stamina above 55,
from RP to SP?