4-Seam Fastball Movement

[Caulfield]

What is the difference in a four seam fastball with 99 for movement and a 4-seamer with 0 for movement?
Is there real movement on 4-seam FB in the Show or is just because the template for all pitch types have movement, velocity and control?

Also, is the forkball & splitter the same pitch and same for the sinker/2-seam fastball?
Like, if one pitcher has a sinker with say, 25 for movement and a 2-seamer with 75 for movement, is his 2-seamer going to be better for inducing grounders than the sinker?

I know a forkball is supposed to be somewhat slower than a splitter IRL but in the Show if a pitcher with a faster velocity forkball than a pitcher with a slower speed splitter, is that pretty much the same pitch, but maybe just a different grip?

[KBLover]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

All just my experience - I have no definitive proof:

What is the difference in a four seam fastball with 99 for movement and a 4-seamer with 0 for movement?
Is there real movement on 4-seam FB in the Show or is just because the template for all pitch types have movement, velocity and control?

There is movement on 4SFB. It's not always consistent for whatever reason, but when I use the 4SFB, I can see the pitch trail giving movement to the arm side and it renders on it's way to the hitter.

Also, is the forkball & splitter the same pitch and same for the sinker/2-seam fastball?

Splitters have later, breaking movement (they "bite" at a point if thrown well and that's when the dive down). Forkballs tend to be more gradual with their movement.

Splitters seems more for swing and miss while Forkballs I like to use to get grounders or use them as a variant of the straight change.

2SFB movement seems very dependent on the delivery of the pitcher. Some pitchers get down and arm movement and some get more down movement and some don't get a ton of movement at all.

Sinkers pretty much the same, but I think sinkers can have more "dive" on them while 2SFB go more "diagonal" sometimes, if that makes sense.

Like, if one pitcher has a sinker with say, 25 for movement and a 2-seamer with 75 for movement, is his 2-seamer going to be better for inducing grounders than the sinker?

Keep in mind that the movement rating's job is also to induce swings and misses. It's like K/9 sets the CPU's PCI size while movement impacts it's ability to track the ball/be fooled on the movement of the pitch.

In that scenario, it will depend also on the action of the pitches. If the 2SFB moves more side than down, you might get more jam contact with 2SFB and more grounders with the sinker if it has more dive motion. Just depends on the action the pitcher gets due to arm angle/deliver/intended location.

I know a forkball is supposed to be somewhat slower than a splitter IRL but in the Show if a pitcher with a faster velocity forkball than a pitcher with a slower speed splitter, is that pretty much the same pitch, but maybe just a different grip?

IMO,

The faster forkball will be like a fastball with a tumbling action. Kinda like a Sinker that "slowly" and constantly sinks instead of "bite and dive".

The slower splitter will act like a straight change with more "bite and dive". So they keep their actions but the velocities being "inverted" can create different usage scenarios.

[Caulfield]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

good stuff, thanks KB

[Houston]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

Hopefully this might help you out. https://lokeshdhakar.com/baseball-pitches-illustrated/


I highly doubt the movement and break is replicated in the game however to co-exist with the pitch type listed.


Years ago we had to use RFB (Running Fastball) to replicate better movement for a 2 Seamer.


For me I give any Japan pitcher who has a splitter I always give them the forkball. As most of them learn the forkball over seas.

[KBLover]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

Years ago we had to use RFB (Running Fastball) to replicate better movement for a 2 Seamer.

This is probably still a good move, honestly, especially if the pitcher doesn't get movement on his 2SFB for whatever reason.

[Houston]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

This is probably still a good move, honestly, especially if the pitcher doesn't get movement on his 2SFB for whatever reason.

The issue was and could still be with the RFB on carry over franchises MLB 15 to 16, 16 to 17 not sure about 17 to 18, but every pitcher that has the RFB was given another 2SM giving them 2 in there arsenal so for me I stopped giving pitchers the RFB because of all of that.

[TheWarmWind]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

The SDS assigned pitches seem more about movement direction and bite then actual grip type. For example, Marcus Stroman throws a 2SFB as his main pitch in the show. He doesn't in real life. He throws a sinker. His grip is a sinker grip. But his sinker has a ton of lateral movement so they made it a 2SFB for the Show, and I agree with the choice. A Show sinker does not accurately represent what he throws. A 2SFB does.

Also I've found that a 4SFB movement effects two things. How little it drops (high movement means less drop, whereas low movement will have more natural or expected drop) and how much arm side movement it has, similar to a RFB. How much of each is highly dependent on the pitching animation.

[CBoller1331]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

I kind of wonder if SDS will ever consider implementing Pitch/FX and/or statcast to determine specific movement on any individual's pitch so that we aren't limited to the "textbook" version each pitch.

I feel like since the data is out there it would be kind of neat to take advantage of it to make each pitcher feel more unique

[ktd1976]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

Hopefully this might help you out. https://lokeshdhakar.com/baseball-pitches-illustrated/


I highly doubt the movement and break is replicated in the game however to co-exist with the pitch type listed.


Years ago we had to use RFB (Running Fastball) to replicate better movement for a 2 Seamer.


For me I give any Japan pitcher who has a splitter I always give them the forkball. As most of them learn the forkball over seas.

The Running Fastball in years past had the OPPOSITE movement that the 2-Seam FB has.

Running fastball "ran" away from the pitching arm of the pitcher...IE for a right handed pitcher, the running fastball would tail into a left handed hitter, and the 2-Seam FB would tail away from a left handed pitcher.

In other words, for a right handed pitcher, The running fastball broke to the non pitching arm side, while a 2 seam fastball broke to the pitching arm side....

[HypoLuxa13]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

I kind of wonder if SDS will ever consider implementing Pitch/FX and/or statcast to determine specific movement on any individual's pitch so that we aren't limited to the "textbook" version each pitch.

I feel like since the data is out there it would be kind of neat to take advantage of it to make each pitcher feel more unique

I'm pretty sure they take Pitch/FX data for most of their pitch repertoires. So if the movement of a pitch is classified as a 2 Seam fastball by Pitch/FX, that is what SDS assigns to that pitcher in the game. As mentioned above, their actual grip isn't used as a determining factor by SDS, such as the case with Stroman using a sinker grip but getting 2-seam movement as categorized by Pitch/FX.

[CBoller1331]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

I'm pretty sure they take Pitch/FX data for most of their pitch repertoires. So if the movement of a pitch is classified as a 2 Seam fastball by Pitch/FX, that is what SDS assigns to that pitcher in the game. As mentioned above, their actual grip isn't used as a determining factor by SDS, such as the case with Stroman using a sinker grip but getting 2-seam movement as categorized by Pitch/FX.

I was thinking using that data to make each pitcher's repertoire more unique. So you see that Player A's slider has x-inches of horizontal movement and y-inches of vertical movement making it different from Player B's slider which has i-inches of horizontal and j-inches of vertical break. I felt like they may have been heading this direction when they sort of introduced varied pitch breaks on MLB 16 (which was implemented poorly resulting in some 12-6 curves to break more like screwballs).

This is definitely just a minor thing that I just think would be kind of cool so that Corey Kluber's curveball looks different from Jose Berrios's curve looks different from Jake Arrieta's curve.

[JoseJoseph9119]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

I was thinking using that data to make each pitcher's repertoire more unique. So you see that Player A's slider has x-inches of horizontal movement and y-inches of vertical movement making it different from Player B's slider which has i-inches of horizontal and j-inches of vertical break. I felt like they may have been heading this direction when they sort of introduced varied pitch breaks on MLB 16 (which was implemented poorly resulting in some 12-6 curves to break more like screwballs).

This is definitely just a minor thing that I just think would be kind of cool so that Corey Kluber's curveball looks different from Jose Berrios's curve looks different from Jake Arrieta's curve.

I think those 3 pitches would look different already based on their pitching animations. The animation any pitcher is assigned is the variable in the equation of how their pitches will work, and, to a lesser extent, how effective they will be overall. For example, I changed one reliever’s delivery and his ERA dropped from the high 4s to below 2. Correlation doesn’t equal causation but I think there’s something to it

[CBoller1331]

Re: 4-Seam Fastball Movement

I think those 3 pitches would look different already based on their pitching animations. The animation any pitcher is assigned is the variable in the equation of how their pitches will work, and, to a lesser extent, how effective they will be overall. For example, I changed one reliever’s delivery and his ERA dropped from the high 4s to below 2. Correlation doesn’t equal causation but I think there’s something to it

Yeah, I understand that there are enough pitch types/animations in the game to generally model every pitcher's repertoire fairly accurately, I just think since we have data like this available it would be neat for SDS to implement it. I also understand how this would barely change the game at all (we are literally talking about inches of break on any given pitch)