A different type of forced scripting

[bamagrad03]

I know, I know. Another one of these. But this isn't a "I can't hit, forced slump, CPU keeps beating me" threads.

I've played this franchise for many years and notice something consistent - when playing against the CPU in a franchise, each game has a 'theme' and it tends to impact both teams.

The computer decides if it's going to be a low scoring struggle or a track meet. That doesn't mean it's decided you'll lose - but that you need to play within the parameters of the 'theme.'

Example: You're 100 games in, so your hitting style and pitching style is locked in. But your hitting results vary wildly from game to game. Almost irrespective of the pitcher you're facing. You might struggle against a guy with a 4+ era and smoke out an ACE.

I'll play against average pitchers whom I square up perfect with my aim and perfect with my timing and just line drive out everything. I'll have multiple hitters go 0-4 with 4 line outs. Then I'll put up a 9 run spot against a great pitcher that I'm not seeing cleanly. And almost every time, the CPU is afflicted with the same 'theme' as my hitters, regardless of who I have pitching.

And this isn't just a 'that's how things play out in real baseball' - it's an entirely observable pattern.

It makes the whole thing have a bit of a predetermined feel, but I imagine it's something they do to make sure the games are enjoyable and nobody is pushing out 162-0 seasons where they win every game 11-2.

Am I the only one?

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

I know, I know. Another one of these. But this isn't a "I can't hit, forced slump, CPU keeps beating me" threads.

I've played this franchise for many years and notice something consistent - when playing against the CPU in a franchise, each game has a 'theme' and it tends to impact both teams.

The computer decides if it's going to be a low scoring struggle or a track meet. That doesn't mean it's decided you'll lose - but that you need to play within the parameters of the 'theme.'

Example: You're 100 games in, so your hitting style and pitching style is locked in. But your hitting results vary wildly from game to game. Almost irrespective of the pitcher you're facing. You might struggle against a guy with a 4+ era and smoke out an ACE.

I'll play against average pitchers whom I square up perfect with my aim and perfect with my timing and just line drive out everything. I'll have multiple hitters go 0-4 with 4 line outs. Then I'll put up a 9 run spot against a great pitcher that I'm not seeing cleanly. And almost every time, the CPU is afflicted with the same 'theme' as my hitters, regardless of who I have pitching.

And this isn't just a 'that's how things play out in real baseball' - it's an entirely observable pattern.

It makes the whole thing have a bit of a predetermined feel, but I imagine it's something they do to make sure the games are enjoyable and nobody is pushing out 162-0 seasons where they win every game 11-2.

Am I the only one?

I usually do not buy into these, but I do feel like this is the case many times. When I score a lot of runs, the CPU usually does too. On other end of spectrum, if I am struggling to hit most of the times so does the CPU.

Like you said it seems like the game locks you into a theme and you have to play within the rules of that game to try and squeak out the win.

One would argue that this is kinda how real life is sometimes, but its application seems random and does not really have to do with your individual playing style.

[Vanilla_Gorilla]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

If you're referring to batting feedback, don't pay attention to it. Baseball is a game of inches. 1" up or down can be the difference between a lineout and a ball off or over the wall.
Unfortunately, the feedback system in MLB The Show 18, doesn't quite capture that sentiment.

In a game where inches are crucial, that aspect is missing. I'd prefer the feedback to show me where the bat is rather than where the player's eyes are.

Also, not to be a total ****, but that is just kind of baseball and sports in general. These players are professionals, and to most of them, a new game is just that, a new game. Sometimes you're going to have to alter your playstyle to fit a game's circumstances. If there's 10mph winds blowing in from CF and you've won most of your games by crushing balls out of the park, you can't rely on that to win this game. You have to alter your playstyle.

P.S. don't swing at first pitches. I don't know what it is, but the universe built into this game does not appreciate it a lot when you swing at first pitches.

[bamagrad03]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

If you're referring to batting feedback, don't pay attention to it. Baseball is a game of inches. 1" up or down can be the difference between a lineout and a ball off or over the wall.
Unfortunately, the feedback system in MLB The Show 18, doesn't quite capture that sentiment.

Baseball is a game of inches, sure. But I'm not talking about barely missing a ball and getting a pop fly or a chopper. I'm talking about how the batting feedback system is accurately tied to ball placement and hit speed - it just happens that when it's a low score 'theme' game, all those perfectly squared up, perfectly timed meatballs go directly to fielders. Not a few here or there, but almost every one. And it will happen for entire games, and magically disappear the next game.

By the 2nd inning, I can tell you if it's a theme game or not. This isn't all bad, it's a mechanism that makes me either eek out a run here or there or make sure I minimize my damage when I'm pitching. But it's there, and you know it. You know it's going to be the type of game where you're bombing on cruise control or you're going to have to claw like mad to get 3 runs.

[ParisB]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

It definitely feels that way sometimes. I can't say for certain that it's true or not. In Season mode I actually tested this a bit earlier in the year. If you exit a game and restart the same game, it sticks to the similar theme (i.e. you rake everything no matter what, or can't even buy a hit on meatballs).

It wasn't scientific and it didn't bother me, just something I observed.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

If you're referring to batting feedback, don't pay attention to it. Baseball is a game of inches. 1" up or down can be the difference between a lineout and a ball off or over the wall.
Unfortunately, the feedback system in MLB The Show 18, doesn't quite capture that sentiment.

In a game where inches are crucial, that aspect is missing. I'd prefer the feedback to show me where the bat is rather than where the player's eyes are.

Also, not to be a total ****, but that is just kind of baseball and sports in general. These players are professionals, and to most of them, a new game is just that, a new game. Sometimes you're going to have to alter your playstyle to fit a game's circumstances. If there's 10mph winds blowing in from CF and you've won most of your games by crushing balls out of the park, you can't rely on that to win this game. You have to alter your playstyle.

P.S. don't swing at first pitches. I don't know what it is, but the universe built into this game does not appreciate it a lot when you swing at first pitches.

I agree with the first part, which is why I disagree with the message as a whole...lol....

The game does not give the right feedback as to whether you're off by a fraction of an inch or not. The feedback and the level of control you have over that fraction of an inch is missing, and agree 100% that the bat location and not the hitters "eyes" should be represented.

But since that is missing it is hard to understand WHAT adjustments need to be made. In real life when you "jussssst missed a pitch" you can the see the batter get under the ball just a bit and you go "oh man, a little higher and thats in the seats".

In The Show I feel like I can show you two identical swings...and the ball jumps off the bat completely different.

1. A game where a bunch of runs are scored = HR
2. A game where its low scoring = popup

Same swing, same timing, same location, same pitcher pitching, same batter...different results.

All of that combined makes it "feel" like the game predetermined the outcome. I tend to stay away from this kind of thinking and I am sure there is more to it than that, but thats the feeling you are left with, and that is all that matters.

i think SCEA made good strides this year in explaining how the PCI works, something that was asked about for years. I feel there is still more under the hood stuff that they need to explain AND fix to help us get better results.

[AUTiger1]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

I know, I know. Another one of these. But this isn't a "I can't hit, forced slump, CPU keeps beating me" threads.

I've played this franchise for many years and notice something consistent - when playing against the CPU in a franchise, each game has a 'theme' and it tends to impact both teams.

The computer decides if it's going to be a low scoring struggle or a track meet. That doesn't mean it's decided you'll lose - but that you need to play within the parameters of the 'theme.'

Example: You're 100 games in, so your hitting style and pitching style is locked in. But your hitting results vary wildly from game to game. Almost irrespective of the pitcher you're facing. You might struggle against a guy with a 4+ era and smoke out an ACE.

I'll play against average pitchers whom I square up perfect with my aim and perfect with my timing and just line drive out everything. I'll have multiple hitters go 0-4 with 4 line outs. Then I'll put up a 9 run spot against a great pitcher that I'm not seeing cleanly. And almost every time, the CPU is afflicted with the same 'theme' as my hitters, regardless of who I have pitching.

And this isn't just a 'that's how things play out in real baseball' - it's an entirely observable pattern.

It makes the whole thing have a bit of a predetermined feel, but I imagine it's something they do to make sure the games are enjoyable and nobody is pushing out 162-0 seasons where they win every game 11-2.

Am I the only one?

I don't fee like that at all. I see all sorts of different results that are completely random. I could win 5-1, lose 4-3, win 16-0, win 16-8, lose 11-2 all in the span of 5 games. That's pretty realistic in my eyes.


Just because you square it up a pitch according to the feedback thing doesn't mean anything honestly. I find that pitch feedback doesn't mirror on field what actually happens. I know if I square up a ball or not. It's like in the game I just finished that I lost. 2-1 count, left-handed power hitter up and I get an inside belt high fastball that is in his happy zone, but the result was a lazy fly ball to LF to end the game because I was late on it. Happens.


As far as hitting liners at guys and whatnot, that happens in real life as well. Those games as a fan are extremely frustrating to watch. Your guys square up and make a lot of good contact throughout the game and it seems everything is right at someone for an out. Most frustrating games ever to watch. But I've been on the receiving end of it too and it's saved my bacon more than once. Make a mistake but it's a liner right at someone. Thank God for good fielder positioning.

[AUTiger1]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

I agree with the first part, which is why I disagree with the message as a whole...lol....

The game does not give the right feedback as to whether you're off by a fraction of an inch or not. The feedback and the level of control you have over that fraction of an inch is missing, and agree 100% that the bat location and not the hitters "eyes" should be represented.

But since that is missing it is hard to understand WHAT adjustments need to be made. In real life when you "jussssst missed a pitch" you can the see the batter get under the ball just a bit and you go "oh man, a little higher and thats in the seats".

In The Show I feel like I can show you two identical swings...and the ball jumps off the bat completely different.

1. A game where a bunch of runs are scored = HR
2. A game where its low scoring = popup

Same swing, same timing, same location, same pitcher pitching, same batter...different results.

All of that combined makes it "feel" like the game predetermined the outcome. I tend to stay away from this kind of thinking and I am sure there is more to it than that, but thats the feeling you are left with, and that is all that matters.

i think SCEA made good strides this year in explaining how the PCI works, something that was asked about for years. I feel there is still more under the hood stuff that they need to explain AND fix to help us get better results.

I can show you the same thing in real life. Just because a hitter appears to square up the ball perfectly doesn't mean it's going to jump off the bat. Not every bat or ball is created equal. Not every pitch has the exact right spin on it. Not every ball off the bat as the exact right spin.



Not every good pitch results in an out and not every bad pitch results in a hit. That is what makes baseball unique and different from the other sports. You can do everything pretty much right and still end up with the wrong result. In football if you do everything right as an offense more times than not you'll be successful, same with basketball.

[AUTiger1]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

Baseball is a game of inches, sure. But I'm not talking about barely missing a ball and getting a pop fly or a chopper. I'm talking about how the batting feedback system is accurately tied to ball placement and hit speed - it just happens that when it's a low score 'theme' game, all those perfectly squared up, perfectly timed meatballs go directly to fielders. Not a few here or there, but almost every one. And it will happen for entire games, and magically disappear the next game.

By the 2nd inning, I can tell you if it's a theme game or not. This isn't all bad, it's a mechanism that makes me either eek out a run here or there or make sure I minimize my damage when I'm pitching. But it's there, and you know it. You know it's going to be the type of game where you're bombing on cruise control or you're going to have to claw like mad to get 3 runs.

A game I recently played against the Reds. First 3 innings absolutely nothing. 4th inning comes, bam, I score 5 runs and give up 5 runs, then the rest of the game is a struggle again. How do you explain that? Based on what you told me that 4th inning should have never happened if the game is a "theme" game as you stated. You can't.



It's baseball. You can't explain a team blowing a 10-0 lead randomly. You can't explain a team being shutout for 8 innings that then scores 7 runs in the 9th. You can't explain a game where it's 1-1 going to extras and then one team scores 6 runs in the 12th. It's baseball. Weirdness is what makes it unique and fun.

[Caulfield]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

... this isn't just a 'that's how things play out in real baseball' - it's an entirely observable pattern.

its not this ...

It makes the whole thing have a bit of a predetermined feel, but I imagine it's something they do to make sure the games are enjoyable and nobody is pushing out 162-0 seasons where they win every game 11-2.

... or this.




its a third option - pure coincidence.
because you can very well go 162-0, or 0-162.
all you gotta do is play on the wrong skill level.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

I can show you the same thing in real life. Just because a hitter appears to square up the ball perfectly doesn't mean it's going to jump off the bat. Not every bat or ball is created equal. Not every pitch has the exact right spin on it. Not every ball off the bat as the exact right spin.



Not every good pitch results in an out and not every bad pitch results in a hit. That is what makes baseball unique and different from the other sports. You can do everything pretty much right and still end up with the wrong result. In football if you do everything right as an offense more times than not you'll be successful, same with basketball.

Not what I am saying...in real life you see when someone squares up a ball and hits it hard. When someone does not square up a ball they hit it weak. We are not talking about success rate, but just simply outcomes of good vs bad. High scoring vs low scoring.

In real life you see this...it may not be obvious in real time but when you break down the replay you see someone just got under or over the ball, or was just early or late. Granted in real life there are games where everyone is on the ball, or where no one is on the ball...but when you break down the AB you can see that happening across the board if you analyze every pitch. It is unexplained as to why, but you can literally see it happening for whatever the reason may be.

In MLB The Show you can have what seemingly looks like two same EXACT swings, with same EXACT feedbacks, on same EXACT pitches, with same EXACT timing and have different results.

When you go to the replay everything looks EXACTLY the same, but the results are different. Leading me to believe the difference between the two events is not the player but some determined outcome....maybe not pre-determined...but something other than the input caused that result (i.e. this game is going to be a high scoring game vs a low scoring game)

Again, to the naked eye this randomness seems to happen in real life too. But when you break down the swings you see in real life why it happened.

In The Show contact points are finite due to animation and overall video game limitations, so similar looking swings have different results to keep the results varied even though the animations are all the same...

This disconnect is what I feel causes that feeling of the results do not match what I see. Even if it is or is not realistic.

It does not pass the eye test.

[KBLover]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

Then I must be coming up with a lot of "close game themes" because the majority of my games are 5-2, 6-4, 6-5, etc.

Then there's games like with my Marlins franchise recently. 20-6, 12-0, 13-3...what theme are those games? User blowout?

Then back to 7-5, 6-4, etc.

A lot of games turn around at some point. I've blown leads, I've come back after getting smoked early...what theme are those?

As far as two swings giving different results...welcome to an RNG model of hitting, imo.

We all know the game doesn't do exact bat-on-ball physics like PYS or BBPro 98 back in the day.

So the abstraction is RNG influenced by your input via your preferred interface (you can change your odds but random is random - so squaring up a pitch gives you the best odds, but odds are odds).

Same with ratings - I mean, if aces getting smoked is the norm, my ace in my carryover would not have a career ERA barely over 2.00 and currently 13-1 with a 1.71 ERA with his ratings actually dropping due to aging.

I faced a former teammate with a 97 H/9 vs my ace. That looked like a "low scoring theme"...until they had to take their guy out. Final score? 7-0 win.

At the most, any "themes" might "influence" the odds (actually, I think it's more variable stuff by each pitcher - some days the same reliever can look great and then I can see he has nothing on the ball, some days, like in the game I need to finish up, my starter is bad or game before, he was fine...until his confidence dropped after back-to-back jacks, etc).

But to say the game will go out of its way or heavily influence things to be high or low scoring, I'm not sure I'm seeing that with the games I'm getting across my franchises.

[nemesis04]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

Question for everyone,, do you guys feel you determine the outcomes in your games or does the cpu actually determine the outcomes but based on game design does a masterful job of giving you the impression you accomplished it?

[KBLover]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

Question for everyone,, do you guys feel you determine the outcomes in your games or does the cpu actually determine the outcomes but based on game design does a masterful job of giving you the impression you accomplished it?

Considering I'm Classic/Directional - the CPU/RNG is going to have a heavy influence by nature of the interfaces.

Throw in auto fielding and base running (with occasional overrides, mostly to tame recklessness on wild pitches) and the CPU has a lot of influence.

For the aspects I do control (timing/influence, strike zone judgment, discipline/pitch selection at the plate, how my fielders will throw via the timing of the throw button within their branched animation, and pitching strategy), I feel what I do makes a difference. Obviously, if my timing is off or I swing at garbage out of the zone a lot, my offense will drop.

When I swing with good timing at good pitches, I'm influencing my chances of success, just like a real hitter. Sometimes, it might not go my way, sometimes the hitter just misses, etc.

Even given Classic pitching, I can still influence how the "quirks" affect the pitches, which then affects the results. And of course, I have full control over the strategy and approach in each PA, which also influences success.

There are factors out of my control, like variable stuff, who's hot/cold, CPU pitching strategy, and how the hitters are placing their PCIs that night. However, I think what I can control meshes with that so that I better "help the cause" by making good decisions. Otherwise, the parts I control will suffer...and so will my team.

[Caulfield]

Re: A different type of forced scripting

Question for everyone,, do you guys feel you determine the outcomes in your games or does the cpu actually determine the outcomes but based on game design does a masterful job of giving you the impression you accomplished it?

oh the game is wonderfully designed to give you that impression. I think I have almost cracked the code. on Tuesdays & Thursdays in April June & August its designed for user-based wins EXCEPT when those days have full moons. on Tuesdays & Thursdays in May July & September the cpu is destined to comeback from behind to win UNLESS its a home game with overcast weather. those games with overcast weather are determined to be scoreless extra inning affairs that can only won by the user if 1 of the following 3 things occurred: you had baloney sandwiches for lunch. you have more than 300 dollars in your bank account. you have blue hair & blonde eyes. on Saturdays & Sundays in June July & October the CPU will blow a lead in the 7th inning only to then win in a walkoff, but only if its the road team. Saturdays & Sundays in April & August are going to be high scoring games that can only be won by the human if you look in a mirror & say ''candy man'' 3 times. Mondays & Fridays with an even number date in April & September are usually 1-0 or 2-1 games. Except when they arent. Wednesday night games on the road can only be won by the human by jumping on a mattress post-coitus. This is what I have uncovered so far but keep in mind these results are based on using the wii & dont take into account PlayStation or ExBox.

TLDR - you dont know whats gonna happen until you play the game and find out.