And once again it rears it's ugly head...

[KnightTemplar]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

Can always rely on you to tell someone to stop playing the game. The usual, mature response...

Yeah and your drama gets a bit old, too.

[Vercingetirex]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

When that magical inning almost each game happens for the AI, it doesn't feel natural or in the flow of the game. It does feel very scripted, and nothing you do will prevent them from getting a run or more.


With that said. I have a problem with the AI not being able to score runs at all throughout the rest of a game. In my franchise, I have the lowest ERA and Runs allowed, but I also have the least amount of strikeouts. It makes no sense.

[stealyerface]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

It is nice to know that every year we can look forward to the obligatory comeback code, cheating AI, late-game collapse threads...

Said no one.

But I am here to tell you that I am firmly in the camp that there is no "comeback code" per se, I believe that the outcome of the game, and the fate of the starting pitcher, is programmed, or nudged, before the first pitch.

Back in the day, those of us who played MVP 2005 (top 5 sports games ever), were able to toggle a thing on or off called "Variable Stuff". Now, just like questions we have asked for years about the under-the-hood stuff in this game, no one ever really got the absolute word on what "Variable Stuff" was, but it was alluded to the fact that there was some programming dice rolls that had outcomes that may vary from game to game.

As the real game of baseball has things that vary greatly, and can be determined by human error and hundredths of inches, it was a ground breaking way to have some weird stuff happen, without forcing it into the game's programming with ifs and thens...

Fast forward to The Show, and it has become apparent to me that there is some sort of black magic ****ery that is used when the game loads up. I have tested this game extensively, and I mean dug in, dragged out, replayed, tested again...all in the search of the holy grail of sliders.

And what I have found is so easily recreate-able, I urge you to try it yourself.

Fire up a game with your team as the home team, and start a game. Load your sliders, load the lineups, load everything into the game, no quick-counts on, just load up a game, and play the top half of the inning.

One start you will have Chris Sale throwing darts on the corners, weak grounders or pop ups, lazy fly balls to the outfield, and he'll have a 14 pitch inning and be out of it.

From the pause screen, confirm Restart.

Play the top half of the inning again.

Maybe more of the same, but maybe..... Every close call is a ball. Seeing eye single. two walks, three run bomb, two errors, and after 29 pitches it is 5-0

Confirm Restart. Start and restart the top half of the game five times. Suddenly, you'll begin to see that there are some very strange trends within each start. And trust me, unless you mismanage the team and pitching staff, there seems to be an uphill or downhill slant that you will either battle or ride for the entire game. But it seems to me that the attack angle you are faced with is well known right from the get go.

Now, mind you, I LOVE THIS. In real life, there are games that flow and games that blow. The fact that we can get this dice-roll into the game, and replicate the ebb and flow of a game that hinges on millimeters, is so much better than a scripted, cookie cutter, Starter for six, relief for two, closer for one bore fest.

I love being able to tell the game is going to grind me up, and have to make radical decisions to stave off the sinking ship. I love the fact that the pressure gets to the defense in the eighth inning, and an error opens up the flood gates to a big inning. I love the fact that every game, every pitch, there are just some things that will happen, could happen, and in some cases, divine intervention will have no help.

HOWEVER... Mismanaging games, not making defensive substitutions late, leaving a starter in too long to pad stats, not taking advantage of lefty-lefty match ups based on the stats and the information given, is NOT an excuse to stand on the soap box every year, and whine and complain about comeback codes and scripted losses.

Last night, the Pirates were all but dead in the ninth, and made a furious comeback and eventually won it in extras. Bad pitching? Yep. Odd decisions based on the batter/pitcher matchup? I'd say so. Clutch base hits with the last strike a pitch away? Indeed.

Comeback code, and reason for yet another thread complaining about it? Not in my book.

Enjoy the game, manage it like every pitch and defensive play counts, and you'll win more than you give away. Play it like a video game, leave your starter in for 127 pitches, and play a soft defense with no regard to shifts, depths, and strategy,,, take your beating like a man, and win the next one.

~syf

[da_centa_fielda]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

I understand it's a game. Devs have to somehow recreate the ability for unusual things to happen because unusual things happen in real life. My problem with it is that it's often to blatant.

For example, throwing a 100+mph fast ball and the hitter will swing very early. That shows the game was programmed for the cpu to miss that pitch before it even left the pitchers hand. Then there are times where I'm throwing everything at a guy and he's fouling every thing off. Then I throw my first breaking pitch perfectly just off the plate, and he takes it no sweat. Literally anyone would swing at these pitches in 0-2 counts. But not the cpu when it's "meant" for them to get on base or whatever.

[Jeffrey Smith]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

It is nice to know that every year we can look forward to the obligatory comeback code, cheating AI, late-game collapse threads...



Said no one.



But I am here to tell you that I am firmly in the camp that there is no "comeback code" per se, I believe that the outcome of the game, and the fate of the starting pitcher, is programmed, or nudged, before the first pitch.



Back in the day, those of us who played MVP 2005 (top 5 sports games ever), were able to toggle a thing on or off called "Variable Stuff". Now, just like questions we have asked for years about the under-the-hood stuff in this game, no one ever really got the absolute word on what "Variable Stuff" was, but it was alluded to the fact that there was some programming dice rolls that had outcomes that may vary from game to game.



As the real game of baseball has things that vary greatly, and can be determined by human error and hundredths of inches, it was a ground breaking way to have some weird stuff happen, without forcing it into the game's programming with ifs and thens...



Fast forward to The Show, and it has become apparent to me that there is some sort of black magic ****ery that is used when the game loads up. I have tested this game extensively, and I mean dug in, dragged out, replayed, tested again...all in the search of the holy grail of sliders.



And what I have found is so easily recreate-able, I urge you to try it yourself.



Fire up a game with your team as the home team, and start a game. Load your sliders, load the lineups, load everything into the game, no quick-counts on, just load up a game, and play the top half of the inning.



One start you will have Chris Sale throwing darts on the corners, weak grounders or pop ups, lazy fly balls to the outfield, and he'll have a 14 pitch inning and be out of it.



From the pause screen, confirm Restart.



Play the top half of the inning again.



Maybe more of the same, but maybe..... Every close call is a ball. Seeing eye single. two walks, three run bomb, two errors, and after 29 pitches it is 5-0



Confirm Restart. Start and restart the top half of the game five times. Suddenly, you'll begin to see that there are some very strange trends within each start. And trust me, unless you mismanage the team and pitching staff, there seems to be an uphill or downhill slant that you will either battle or ride for the entire game. But it seems to me that the attack angle you are faced with is well known right from the get go.



Now, mind you, I LOVE THIS. In real life, there are games that flow and games that blow. The fact that we can get this dice-roll into the game, and replicate the ebb and flow of a game that hinges on millimeters, is so much better than a scripted, cookie cutter, Starter for six, relief for two, closer for one bore fest.



I love being able to tell the game is going to grind me up, and have to make radical decisions to stave off the sinking ship. I love the fact that the pressure gets to the defense in the eighth inning, and an error opens up the flood gates to a big inning. I love the fact that every game, every pitch, there are just some things that will happen, could happen, and in some cases, divine intervention will have no help.



HOWEVER... Mismanaging games, not making defensive substitutions late, leaving a starter in too long to pad stats, not taking advantage of lefty-lefty match ups based on the stats and the information given, is NOT an excuse to stand on the soap box every year, and whine and complain about comeback codes and scripted losses.



Last night, the Pirates were all but dead in the ninth, and made a furious comeback and eventually won it in extras. Bad pitching? Yep. Odd decisions based on the batter/pitcher matchup? I'd say so. Clutch base hits with the last strike a pitch away? Indeed.



Comeback code, and reason for yet another thread complaining about it? Not in my book.



Enjoy the game, manage it like every pitch and defensive play counts, and you'll win more than you give away. Play it like a video game, leave your starter in for 127 pitches, and play a soft defense with no regard to shifts, depths, and strategy,,, take your beating like a man, and win the next one.



~syf

I don’t think that’s limited to game to game either. The first 2 weeks with the game I restarted my Jays franchise 3 times using the same rosters and each time I’d get different players off to hot or cold starts. I definitely feel there is a little bit of a randomness to the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[saintrules]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

This is common across so many different sports games, not just The Show. I can recall numerous NCAA 14 games where I played a virtually unbeatable opponent even though my powerhouse roster was light years more talented.

I think all games have a slight predetermined difficulty (no matter your settings) and sometimes it just goes ham on you or eases up to the point of being a cake walk. But... it's also the awesome games in between that make it all worth it.

[stealyerface]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

I understand it's a game. Devs have to somehow recreate the ability for unusual things to happen because unusual things happen in real life. My problem with it is that it's often to blatant.

For example, throwing a 100+mph fast ball and the hitter will swing very early. That shows the game was programmed for the cpu to miss that pitch before it even left the pitchers hand. Then there are times where I'm throwing everything at a guy and he's fouling every thing off. Then I throw my first breaking pitch perfectly just off the plate, and he takes it no sweat. Literally anyone would swing at these pitches in 0-2 counts. But not the cpu when it's "meant" for them to get on base or whatever.

Aha!!!! And this will be the preamble to another thread I will start where I try and decipher the PCI...

I'll foul a pitch off on 0-2 and stay alive, and on the swing feedback, the ball is well below the outer margin of the PCI. Like two feet away from the outside margin of the PCI "splatter" or whatever they decided to use for the PCI.

But then, I'll sit on a changeup with JD, time it perfectly, so much so that my Feedback on the swing is "good" , and the ball marker on the feedback screen is actually touching the bottom hard edge of the margin.... and I'll swing and miss the ball completely.

So, if someone can explain to me how a perfectly timed swing, in the strike zone, touching the solid portion of the PCI results in a swing and miss, and a ball a foot off the ground, not even within the same time zone as the PCI, can result in a foul ball, I'm all ears.

And I believe it all reverts back to preordained omnipotence...

~syf

[Padgoi]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

Aha!!!! And this will be the preamble to another thread I will start where I try and decipher the PCI...

I'll foul a pitch off on 0-2 and stay alive, and on the swing feedback, the ball is well below the outer margin of the PCI. Like two feet away from the outside margin of the PCI "splatter" or whatever they decided to use for the PCI.

But then, I'll sit on a changeup with JD, time it perfectly, so much so that my Feedback on the swing is "good" , and the ball marker on the feedback screen is actually touching the bottom hard edge of the margin.... and I'll swing and miss the ball completely.

So, if someone can explain to me how a perfectly timed swing, in the strike zone, touching the solid portion of the PCI results in a swing and miss, and a ball a foot off the ground, not even within the same time zone as the PCI, can result in a foul ball, I'm all ears.

And I believe it all reverts back to preordained omnipotence...

~syf

This. I never said I believe in comeback AI or anything like that. What I said was, "it reared it's ugly head." What is it? Apparently you guys filled in the blank yourselves. When I said it, I didn't mean comeback. I meant nonsense, garbage, absurdities, unrealistic jargon, inorganic smut. Basically exactly what you just described in your last 2 posts.

[unhittable]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

This is the only sports game that I play that feels like the outcome is not impeded by programmed factors. Madden, NHL, ect, they all seem to have this thing that clicks on and you cannot stop the ai/cpu. In MLB I have never had this issues. Sure it does happen when you have a game or inning when the cpu can do know wrong, but it feels "proper" or realistic, as it happens to the best teams. Almost every time something happens that I dont agree with or find an annoyance, I will review the replay and see what happened, then realize I just make a crap pitch or something.

The last game I played I gave up 2 home runs, both on pitches outside the zone, and it was frustrating....but then I hit a 3 run shot with a player that I didnt think would ever hit a homer, on am outside pitch....lol.

I love the Show, and find 8t the only game that the annoyances, frustrations, bs plays, ect are at a minimum and usually from a replay review, justified and not a cheating cpu.

[stealyerface]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

This. I never said I believe in comeback AI or anything like that. What I said was, "it reared it's ugly head." What is it? Apparently you guys filled in the blank yourselves. When I said it, I didn't mean comeback. I meant nonsense, garbage, absurdities, unrealistic jargon, inorganic smut. Basically exactly what you just described in your last 2 posts.

I just kind of packaged the rearing ugly head, and the nonsense and the comeback code all together, as your thread was linked in a closed thread about Comeback AI or the Cheating CPU... As you know, we get a few of these every year, so I lumped them all together.

I am pretty sure there is something I can't figure out... and no one will admit to it, but the fact that I have been able to replicate the slant, means that, in my opinion, there is something there.

What I am really digging for, and who knows whether this will be like Oak Island and drag on for years to come... is whether or not the PCI issue happens because you are just GOING TO MISS a certain pitch, no matter what the timing or the PCI seems to show.

Is it possible, that in the 4th inning, with a runner on second, and the count 2-1 to your number three batter, no matter what you do, the result will be a swing and a miss? Does it make the pitch count numbers more realistic, does it factor in the whiff or ZOI ratings? Is there nothing that can be done to undo the game's seeming insistence on this pitch being a strike?

If this is the case, we have a real Ugly Head we need to dive into.

~syf

[Padgoi]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

I am pretty sure there is something I can't figure out... and no one will admit to it, but the fact that I have been able to replicate the slant, means that, in my opinion, there is something there.

~syf

Honestly, I've believed in something being there for years, but I always got ridiculed in the past when I brought it up. Do I think there's comeback code per se? No . . . if there was, every game would be a comeback. Do I think the losing team (user or CPU is immaterial) gets a boost in attributes when they're losing that may or may not be thwarted with near flawless play? Absolutely! I don't have an agenda (unlike others here), I just want a solid playing, simulation baseball game that represents the sport well. And I've played enough over the past decade to know there's CLEARLY something in the code that makes certain circumstances happen that feel completely inorganic. It's been happening for YEARS.

I literally played a game last night as the Mets . . . totally true story. I was up 1-0 in the fourth, tacked on another in the fifth to take a 2-0 lead. Next half inning starts and I tell my friend as soon as the inning starts, next batter is gonna single. Count is 0-1. I throw an inside fastball, sure enough he muscles it into left for a single. Next batter is Granderson. Once again, I tell my friend right then and there . . . he's hitting a homer and there's almost nothing I can do about it. Game stutters . . . I can literally PREDICT what's gonna happen without even THINKING. I start with a low slider for ball 1. Come back with an outside and high fastball that conveniently leaks over the plate . . . Granderson swings and IMMEDIATELY the game stutters again as he swings . . . and as I literally predicted . . . 440 feet and it's 2-2.

Things like this happen CONSTANTLY, especially on Legend difficulty and it just makes everything seem so absurdly scripted. I've been playing this game long enough and watching this game long enough to know how to set up hitters and pitch smart. Doesn't matter. When the game says something is happening, there's almost nothing you can do about it. Almost...

[bspring3]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

I just kind of packaged the rearing ugly head, and the nonsense and the comeback code all together, as your thread was linked in a closed thread about Comeback AI or the Cheating CPU... As you know, we get a few of these every year, so I lumped them all together.



I am pretty sure there is something I can't figure out... and no one will admit to it, but the fact that I have been able to replicate the slant, means that, in my opinion, there is something there.



What I am really digging for, and who knows whether this will be like Oak Island and drag on for years to come... is whether or not the PCI issue happens because you are just GOING TO MISS a certain pitch, no matter what the timing or the PCI seems to show.



Is it possible, that in the 4th inning, with a runner on second, and the count 2-1 to your number three batter, no matter what you do, the result will be a swing and a miss? Does it make the pitch count numbers more realistic, does it factor in the whiff or ZOI ratings? Is there nothing that can be done to undo the game's seeming insistence on this pitch being a strike?



If this is the case, we have a real Ugly Head we need to dive into.



~syf

So I don’t subscribe to the predetermining of outcomes. What is happening is explained 100% by ratings and input.

In your scenario, when you press swing, a calculation occurs based on ratings for both batter and pitcher, difficulty, sliders, PCI placement and timing. This all then works together to determine likelihood of Great, good, poor, or no contact.

So let’s say that a pitch and subsequent swing occurs with the following parameters: HOF difficulty, directly in the center PCI placement, and slightly late timing. the game determines based off all the above that (for example) 30% will be great, 40% will be good, 20% poor, and 10% will be missed. Note that these are made up for this example.

So if you are able to replicate the exact same situation 100 times you would get those 4 results at roughly those %. That’s just simple programming chance and randomness into a game.

Otherwise, a good player who can get perfect timing and pci placement would bat 1000 and hit HRs all day.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[stealyerface]

Re: And once again it rears its ugly head...

I like this explanation, and perhaps I even like it more as I use the pitch-edited roster.

I am not sure if the edits just were solely pitch selection and movement, or if there were any changes to whiff rates as well as swing and miss ratios, as determined by the edits.

You may be on to something, as I definitely see totally different PCI sizes for batters in the same at bat. So, I rarely ever use a power swing, and I play on All Star. JBJ, facing a righty, swings at a 2seam FB, and misses. I look at the feedback, and his PCI is the size, if we use an example, of a quarter (on the screen). Now he gets ahead in the count 2-1, swings at another 2 seamer, and the PCI indicator is the size of a dime. Same pitch, same normal swing..,

Now, if the pitcher has ratings that within each at bat, changes (by virtue of this percentage dice-roll you speak of”, then so be it, and I’m okay with it. Totally.

If, however, the PCI indicator changes size ( and with it the ability to hit pitches) and does so arbitrarily, so as to statistically even out the game.. I’m not so okay with that.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, and yet I am probably better off turning the PCI feedback totally off, and just living with the fact the he “barely missed it”. The game ought not give feedback showing great timing, and me covering the ball like I own it, and my reward be a miss. Your explanation certainly talks me down from the edge, however, I think I’ll not have the PCI on, and use it as a feedback tool, lest it not feed me actual results.

This theory still, however, does not clear up the ability to restart a game five times, and have a clear, and glaring pre-game adjustment being made. Now, let’s use your percentages, and say that the numbers you used are game one breakdowns. Is it possible after a restart and new game, the percentages load to 70% great 20% good, 5% poor and 5% missed?

Now, in effect, you are pitching uphill all game long with the determiner for the Algorithm you suggested, having a CPU slant? Likewise, flip it to the Human side, and you get a game where you collect 20 hits and just can’t miss?

Still not “predetermined”, but the scales are hanging lower on one side than the other.

Using your theory, is it not possible there are factors that predetermine the percentages, that are less random and stat-based than we surmise?

~syf


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Caulfield]

Re: And once again it rears it's ugly head...

I literally played a game last night as the Mets . . . totally true story. I was up 1-0 in the fourth, tacked on another in the fifth to take a 2-0 lead. Next half inning starts and I tell my friend as soon as the inning starts, next batter is gonna single. Count is 0-1. I throw an inside fastball, sure enough he muscles it into left for a single. Next batter is Granderson. Once again, I tell my friend right then and there . . . he's hitting a homer and there's almost nothing I can do about it. Game stutters . . . I can literally PREDICT what's gonna happen without even THINKING. I start with a low slider for ball 1. Come back with an outside and high fastball that conveniently leaks over the plate . . . Granderson swings and IMMEDIATELY the game stutters again as he swings . . . and as I literally predicted . . . 440 feet and it's 2-2.

That was your gut telling you to give the four-fingered salute. You should have listented to it

[bspring3]

Re: And once again it rears its ugly head...

I like this explanation, and perhaps I even like it more as I use the pitch-edited roster.

I am not sure if the edits just were solely pitch selection and movement, or if there were any changes to whiff rates as well as swing and miss ratios, as determined by the edits.

You may be on to something, as I definitely see totally different PCI sizes for batters in the same at bat. So, I rarely ever use a power swing, and I play on All Star. JBJ, facing a righty, swings at a 2seam FB, and misses. I look at the feedback, and his PCI is the size, if we use an example, of a quarter (on the screen). Now he gets ahead in the count 2-1, swings at another 2 seamer, and the PCI indicator is the size of a dime. Same pitch, same normal swing..,

Now, if the pitcher has ratings that within each at bat, changes (by virtue of this percentage dice-roll you speak of”, then so be it, and I’m okay with it. Totally.

If, however, the PCI indicator changes size ( and with it the ability to hit pitches) and does so arbitrarily, so as to statistically even out the game.. I’m not so okay with that.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, and yet I am probably better off turning the PCI feedback totally off, and just living with the fact the he “barely missed it”. The game ought not give feedback showing great timing, and me covering the ball like I own it, and my reward be a miss. Your explanation certainly talks me down from the edge, however, I think I’ll not have the PCI on, and use it as a feedback tool, lest it not feed me actual results.

This theory still, however, does not clear up the ability to restart a game five times, and have a clear, and glaring pre-game adjustment being made. Now, let’s use your percentages, and say that the numbers you used are game one breakdowns. Is it possible after a restart and new game, the percentages load to 70% great 20% good, 5% poor and 5% missed?

Now, in effect, you are pitching uphill all game long with the determiner for the Algorithm you suggested, having a CPU slant? Likewise, flip it to the Human side, and you get a game where you collect 20 hits and just can’t miss?

Still not “predetermined”, but the scales are hanging lower on one side than the other.

Using your theory, is it not possible there are factors that predetermine the percentages, that are less random and stat-based than we surmise?

~syf


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Yes, I agree that pitchers can vary greatly in a single game with restarting but again I don’t think it’s predetermined but instead probability and sample size once again.

So my earlier example was for a single pitch, but you can extrapolate that over a whole game. So take Chris Sale for example, you would expect over the course of a season he throws, for example, 30% balls, 30% on the black, 30% hanging around the edges, and 10% meatballs. Now over the course of a season he may throw 3,000 pitches, 300 of which are meatballs. It just may happen that 50 of those 300 happen in one game. Since 1 game of pitches is a small sample size, the variance from game to game can be expected to be high.

So this is ultimately what you are seeing. Over the course of a season it should all even out to the ratings of that pitcher as the sample size increases.

You will also have games where you are throwing meatballs and hitters still aren’t hitting. You will have games where you are painting the black 90% of the time and hitters are just on that day. And you will have everything in between. It’s the beauty of baseball and how this game is programmed. It truly replicated the variance of a players performance over a season in my mind.


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