Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

[Feros Ferio 7]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

Lineup construction matters most over a long period of time.

Inside one game it matters slightly but over 162 it matters a lot.

Your best hitters should hit at the top so they accrue more at bats over the course of the season.


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[DarthRambo]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

^^^^yeah I think it’s even still there. Noticed Javy Baez had the upset red face on the morale tab but it was because I hadn’t placed him in the lineup at all yet (traded for him).

Sneaking suspicion morale works the same way it always has it’s just hidden now. Just guessing though. Something is certainly effecting it because it’s there and it changes, just no indicators as to what.

Wow I had completely forgot they do have morale. But it's poorly designed cause like you said, no indicators as to what changes it.

I'd like to see a system more like the NHL series has. Much more clear what's doing what, and the line chemistry they have for NHL 21 is fantastic imo. A lineup chemistry for MLB would be cool if done right. Calling up or down effects morale for certain teammates.

MLB definitely needs a lot of work to what they have for sure. Especially when I don't even realize it's there. I'm sure I am definitely not the only one who doesn't realize it either.

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[knucklecutter]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

In previous years lineup order among other things would increase or decrease ratings and it was dumb. Thank God they took it out. This year to my knowledge morale only affects contracts.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

Hmm yeah Idk about that. If you flipped a team's batting order upside down you're saying they will only lose one more game than they would otherwise with a more logical batting order??

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If you went out of your way to make a really bad lineup, then it would be a little worse. But in general, an inefficient batting order is only worth around 10 runs less (and, depending on the season, ~10 runs equals 1 win) per season than the most efficient order possible.

Say you have a guy with a .370 obp and a guy with a .330 obp. And you put the first guy leadoff and the second guy fifth in the order. Assuming they played every game, the leadoff hitter would get on base 273 times. If you flipped them, the .330 guy would get on base 243 times. So you lose one baserunner every 5 1/2 games or so. Given that leadoff hitters score a run 42% of the time they get on base in 2021, you're losing about 13 runs from your leadoff spot. However, your fifth spot is likely scoring more. Using 2021 numbers, you'd get around 9 1/2 runs back from the increased on base rates from your five hole. Obviously, that's a huge simplification, but that is a relatively inefficient shift (it's not like going from leadoff to hitting 2nd, for example), and still only worth around a third of a win over the course of a season.

That's not to say it doesn't matter. If you can squeeze more runs out of a lineup, you should do it, especially in a video game where they aren't humans more likely to be effected mentally by where they are hitting. But in general, who is hitting and how they are hitting are much, MUCH more important than where they are hitting. If you have a hitter who the numbers say should be hitting fourth, but he is more comfortable and hits better batting third, it's better to hit him third. Doing things like splitting up your lefties, is more important than following a given lineup template. But I do believe that batting order is something that matters a little bit that most fans generally think matters a lot.

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[Caulfield]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

with seemingly nearly every player either swinging for the fences to homer or striking out,
it's devalued and maligned the lineup much the same as it has the bunt.
with the inevitable universal DH, the last spot in the lineup you could depend on, the NL nine spot,
is on its death bed too
the times they are a-changing

#OldManRant

[TheWarmWind]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

After nearly 6 years of building my lineup using the newer school of thought, I've found myself drifting back towards the old school style of lineup.

The only exception is the #2 hitter. I'm firmly entrenched in the idea that they need to be an excellent hitter, hopefully with some pop. Luckily my current #2 is a 4 tool CF (in order: speed, contact, power, glove) so he can fill both the "new school" and "old school" definitions well.

I'd also say I prioritize OBP in the #1 spot, but again I'm lucky there. Jeremy Funk is both an excellent hitter with elite discipline (who is a switch hitter who excels on both sides of the plate) and a speedy basestealer. His contract extension is looking mighty smart right now. Paying him a 5 year front-loaded contact, starting at 18 mil this year and working its way down.

Really I just go with whatever strategy fits my current roster best. Sometimes it's new school, sometimes it's old school.

I've also been a big fan over the years of the top half (1 to 5) being build new school while the bottom half works like a second lineup built old school style.

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[tessl]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

So not even that long ago we all knew the basic idea of how MLB lineups were formed. Fast guy leading off, good on base contact guy #2. Power at #4 and #6 etc etc.

Nowadays it's so different that when I look at lineups around the league I feel lost trying to understand how these are formed. Reason I ask is cause I'd love to see this game figure it out and fix lineup logic. It's very outdated system that doesn't come close to following the logic behind how lineups are formed irl.

So I'm curious if anyone could explain to me the basic gist or logic used in todays game to form lineups. Is it something that could be done in the game to a degree in a generic fashion?

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I think some teams use a computer program/saber metrics as a guide. The Cardinals are an example of that. In other cases the manager does what he thinks is best. White Sox are an example of that.

There is no rhyme or reason in many cases.

I love manage mode and my lineup is

1 - speed who can get on base. Lou Brock
2 - contact hitter who can get on base an ideally isn't slow. Pete Rose
3 - best combination of contact, power and speed. Stan Musial/Mike Trout
4 - power hitter who can drive in runs. Willie Mays/Hank Aaron/Mickey Mantle
5 - similar to 4 but not quite as good. Reggie Jackson

6 and 7 next best hitters.
8 worst hitter.
9 pitcher.

I turn DH off in my franchise.

Those are my ideal. IRL is frequently different due to personnel.

My current franchise lineup vs rhp is:

1 - Waters. Speed can steal a base
2 - Arraez. Contact but slow
3 - Moran. Contact/Power and clutch but slow
4 - Devers Power and clutch
5 - Meadows
6 - Arozarena
7 - A Frazier
8 - Nola

Considering switcing Meadows and Moran.

Arozarena was on the trading block so I moved some top prospects for him and Meadows. Meadows hits .300 vs rhp. Less than .200 vs lhp. Arozarena who I mistakenly thought would be a superstar was batting .000 vs lhp for the first 6 weeks of the season. Flipped La'Brian Hayes for Devers and don't regret it. Hays is gold glove defense but bat not as good.

Lineup is okay, not great. Starting pitching is poor. With my self imposed trade restrictions I simply can't acquire good starting pitching.

"Ace" is Rodon with an era over 5 and final year of contract.
Next best is Eichoff.
3-4-5 is evolving.

[KingV2k3]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

I sim a lot of games, because I use a "play one starter's starts and sim the rest" approach to franchise.

Makes it possible to get a few (or more) years in, etc.

Anyway:

I've found that the engine still seems to prefer the more "traditional" approach to lineups, as outlined in the OP.

Varying too far from that usually shuts down the offensive production from a couple / few players or more.

There's always exceptions, but once I find which "bubble guys" (players who appear to fit one slot's "criteria" over another) stat best in what slots, I tend to work around that.

I also lean on L / R BA stats for platoon ideas and end up using a LOT of different lineups over a season.

To me, it's a "stats plus intuition" thing, not unlike IRL.

That being said:

bspring3's Sabermetric Outline is intriguing, so gonna def revisit "New School" again with that approach.

Thanks!

[DonkeyJote]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

One thing I think will be interesting in the future, particularly if they implement one of the rules they're testing in the minors regarding pickoffs (since the early returns on those rules is that they increase stolen bases by like 70%), is where do base stealers go. I actually think it doesn't make as much sense to put your base stealers at the top of the lineup, because even with a higher success rate, the benefits aren't as great when you're on base for guys that hit a lot of doubles or homers. I think putting a base stealer in the middle of the order, and playing a little more small ball down there, where you likely have a lot less power, makes a lot of sense.

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[tessl]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

One thing I think will be interesting in the future, particularly if they implement one of the rules they're testing in the minors regarding pickoffs (since the early returns on those rules is that they increase stolen bases by like 70%), is where do base stealers go. I actually think it doesn't make as much sense to put your base stealers at the top of the lineup, because even with a higher success rate, the benefits aren't as great when you're on base for guys that hit a lot of doubles or homers. I think putting a base stealer in the middle of the order, and playing a little more small ball down there, where you likely have a lot less power, makes a lot of sense.

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It depends on the player. If he can steal bases but can't hit I don't want him in the 1 spot in the order because I turn DH off and frequently the pitcher lays down a sacrifice bunt to move a runner to second. For that reason I use base stealers who can also hit and put them in the 1 spot. Ideally your 2 and 3 hitters can hit for average. 2 hitter should be a guy with good vision and discipline who can take a pitch or two and not be at a disadvantage. I rarely run on the first or second pitch because of the risk of pitchout.

Another question is who do you bat 8th in a non-DH lineup? If your pitcher is sacrificing the 8 hitter to second base then you want a guy who can score on a base hit.

[Hockeytown954]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

It depends on the player. If he can steal bases but can't hit I don't want him in the 1 spot in the order because I turn DH off and frequently the pitcher lays down a sacrifice bunt to move a runner to second. For that reason I use base stealers who can also hit and put them in the 1 spot. Ideally your 2 and 3 hitters can hit for average. 2 hitter should be a guy with good vision and discipline who can take a pitch or two and not be at a disadvantage. I rarely run on the first or second pitch because of the risk of pitchout.

Another question is who do you bat 8th in a non-DH lineup? If your pitcher is sacrificing the 8 hitter to second base then you want a guy who can score on a base hit.

I normally bat my pitcher 8th and a speedster 9th. That way I'm not sacrificing the top of my order...

[canes21]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

Old school, new school, I don't know where I fit.

I bat Acuna 1st because he is my absolute best overall player and hitter and needs the most AB's. Freeman is generally my 2nd best, so he goes 2nd to get the next most AB's. If a lefty is throwing I will bat Albies 2nd since he bats so well against them AND because having Freeman behind him generally gets him better pitches to hack at.

I then pretty much go down the rest of the lineup going with who is the next best hitter. I don't do the whole he is a power hitter, he goes 4th kind of deal. If I have identical hitters, the more powerful guy goes 4th and the weaker guy goes 5th, but the main thing i structure a lineup around is how good they hit and how well they get on base. All other factors are only used to differentiate otherwise similar players.

For example, if I have 2 guys batting .210 with identical OBP, then if one is significantly faster he will bat 8th so that he can be sac bunted over to 2nd and be a threat to score when the top of the order comes up.

I have a simplistic view of getting the best hitters the most AB's. The runs will come in that way. I don't care if I bat 3 straight right handed hitters or 3 straight slow guys. My slow guy on 1st has a better chance at scoring when a .310 hitter is at the plate than he does if I put a lefty there that bats .245 to keep from having 3 straight righties.

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[lemarflacco]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

Yea I think the true issue with the system is that there is no variability. Like we can all argue wether they are building a lineup realistically or correctly but bothers me more is how every single team uses the same lineup logic.

And my biggest issue is with the 2 spot. ID say teams in real life are likely to put their BEST hitter in the 2 spot while It seems like the game is coded to put the teams worst hitter in the two hole lmao Super weird.

Phillies are hitting a .189 Ronald Torreyes there. They are batting Bohm leadoff which I though was cool. But moving JT Realmuto down to the 5 spot to make sure you can get Torreyes in there?

Yankees batted Ryan Lamarre, by far the worst hitter in their lineup and he didn't have speed, number 2 ALL year. He hit below .200 and moving everyone down had Stanton batting like 7th with 40 hrs because they had to get Lamarre at the top.

Its bizarre

And its bad how lineups dont stick because Im okay with setting all the teams lineups. But when they rest a player, instead of moving everyone up , they like rearrange the whole lineup. And take like the leadoff man who's batting .350, move him to the 8th hole for the day , move the 2 hole hitter , the star of the team down to 4, then like insert the 12th and 13th men off the bench that are giving ppl a rest into the leadoff and 2 spot lol

[RogueHominid]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

This is an interesting and helpful read. I'm not well-versed on advanced statistics and the current way teams are assessing hitters' value.

I'm wondering if folks who are more plugged in can give me some perspective on how, how much, and where teams in the current era value defense.

I know this varies from team to team, but in general terms, how do current GMs and managers think about defense?

The adage I'm familiar with is something like "defense up the middle" (C/SS/2B/CF), with your power coming from 1B/3B/RF. Does that still hold, more or less, or has the calculus changed?

What are some guidelines I can use to figure out if a player is SO good at offense that potential defensive shortcomings are nullified, or if a player is SO good at defense that poor offensive production is acceptable.

I'm most interested in answers that help me understand real MLB but also help me translate that understanding into an ability to use some principles in The Show.

I always appreciate the knowledge and passion this community brings, so thanks advance!

[lemarflacco]

Re: How MLB lineups are formed nowadays

Every team does these things differently when it comes to valuing defense. Some teams value it and some dont.

As far as defense goes, I'd say SS and CF are the premium defensive positions. So for example you have a hot shot SS who comes up through the system, as they get bigger and slower and age they may move to a corner position.