OBPS

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

I think the main disconnect here is you are only referencing in all of this total bases. That number was only found with a formula, the formula which weights each hit by how many bases it produced. In order to use this formula you have to first solve for how many total bases you had. That formula weights each hit by how many bases it produced.

I am in no way saying a base is worth more than another base. I am saying that each hit is, that’s what the formula calculates, how much each hit is measured or “weighted” by how many bases they produced.

So yes bases doesn’t weigh more than another base but the hits DO. This is why it is a weighted average cause each hit weighs different as you calculate how many bases were made before you divide it by at bats.

That is where the disconnect is. But, the disconnect is NOT on my end. That number (total bases) is a set number. But, because MLB doesn't track that stat, you have to find it by using that formula. But, technically that formula is not even "weighted" It is simply using the stats that MLB does track, and multiplying them by the bases gained in each of those hits, to arrive at the dividend, which is still a set number.

I hit a home run, a single, a triple and a double, in 20 at bats. I amassed 10 total bases. That number is what it is. If MLB would track this stat, then the equation would simply be 10/20. Because MLB doesn't directly track that stat, we have to find it by multiplying the stats they do track (hits) by the number of bases gained in each of those hits. That is not a weighted number. It is still a fixed number. 1 single is 1 base. 1 double is 2 bases. etc. That is simply calculating the number of bases. It is not "weighing" some hits more than others, it is simply finding out what the number of total bases is. That total bases number is what it is. It is how many bases the player gained through hitting the baseball. It is a fixed number, not a "weighted" number.

The disconnect is that we have to use an equation to find out what that fixed number is, because it is not directly kept. But it is still a fixed number, not a weighted number. Thus, slugging percentage is not a weighted average. It is an average of two fixed numbers....total bases gained divided by total at bats

[ExarKub00720]

Re: OBPS

That is where the disconnect is. But, the disconnect is NOT on my end. That number (total bases) is a set number. But, because MLB doesn't track that stat, you have to find it by using that formula. But, technically that formula is not even "weighted" It is simply using the stats that MLB does track, and multiplying them by the bases gained in each of those hits, to arrive at the dividend, which is still a set number.

I hit a home run, a single, a triple and a double, in 20 at bats. I amassed 10 total bases. That number is what it is. If MLB would track this stat, then the equation would simply be 10/20. Because MLB doesn't directly track that stat, we have to find it by multiplying the stats they do track (hits) by the number of bases gained in each of those hits. That is not a weighted number. It is still a fixed number. 1 single is 1 base. 1 double is 2 bases. etc. That is simply calculating the number of bases. It is not "weighing" some hits more than others, it is simply finding out what the number of total bases is. That total bases number is what it is. It is how many bases the player gained through hitting the baseball. It is a fixed number, not a "weighted" number.

The disconnect is that we have to use an equation to find out what that fixed number is, because it is not directly kept. But it is still a fixed number, not a weighted number. Thus, slugging percentage is not a weighted average. It is an average of two fixed numbers....total bases gained divided by total at bats

By definition though a weighted average formula is what the formula that MLB is using. This is a math term it doesn’t mean anything other than in order to learn the total bases you have to use a weighted formula. It means nothing once you find the total bases but in order to find that number you had to use a weighted formula.

Even if MLB tracked the total plates a player had, that math would have by definition been done in the background somewhere. The math is where you get that number so even if you looked up total bases someone has, someone behind the scenes did that math for you which used a weighted formula to do so.

Calling it a weighted formula doesn’t mean anything other than that label of the math formula. It isn’t trying to put any emphasis on the end number and what it means. All it means is you had to weight the hits to get the total bases to learn the average.

It seems there is a digging in that the term weighed, well holds weight. It doesn’t. It’s just what the average is called.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

By definition though a weighted average formula is what the formula that MLB is using. This is a math term it doesn’t mean anything other than in order to learn the total bases you have to use a weighted formula. It means nothing once you find the total bases but in order to find that number you had to use a weighted formula.

Calling it a weighted formula doesn’t mean anything other than that label of the math formula. It isn’t trying to put any emphasis on the end number and what it means. All it means is you had to weight the hits to get the total bases to learn the average.

It seems there is a digging in that the term weighed, well holds weight. It doesn’t. It’s just what the average is called.

But it's not though.
By definition....
The weighted average formula is used to calculate the average value of a particular set of numbers with different levels of relevance. The relevance of each number is called its weight.

That is NOT what Slugging percentage (average) is doing.

It is calculating one set number (total bases gained) by another set number (total at bats)

Just because we have to use a formula to find out what that first set number is (because it isn't directly recorded) that number is still a single set number, not a set of numbers with a different level of relevance.

If that number was directly recorded, there would be no need for an equation to determine that number. Thus there would be no debate that it was a "weighted average" because it clearly wasn't.

That value (total bases) exists, whether it is recorded or not. It is a single value, not a set of values with different levels of relevance.

[ExarKub00720]

Re: OBPS

But it's not though.
By definition....
The weighted average formula is used to calculate the average value of a particular set of numbers with different levels of relevance. The relevance of each number is called its weight.

That is NOT what Slugging percentage (average) is doing.

It is calculating one set number (total bases gained) by another set number (total at bats)

Just because we have to use a formula to find out what that first set number is (because it isn't directly recorded) that number is still a single set number, not a set of numbers with a different level of relevance.

If that number was directly recorded, there would be no need for an equation to determine that number. Thus there would be no debate that it was a "weighted average" because it clearly wasn't.

That value (total bases) exists, whether it is recorded or not. It is a single value, not a set of values with different levels of relevance.

Again you keep focusing on total bases, but the formula for total bases is found via a weighted formula. The weight is how many bases that hit produced. When you do the formula to find total bases each hit differs.

This is just math, it isn’t anything other than that. The weight of each hit is compared to the “weight” of the bases. So a double is equal to but if you had 13 doubles and 4 triples and 10 home runs and 30 singles you are going to have to do the math, which again is a weighted formula cause each of those hits has different values, to find out the total bases.

Once that math is calculated then you have the total bases and use that to find the average. Yes if you just looked at slugging as totally bases / by at bats then yes it is not a weighted average.

The weighted part is found when you have to learn what the number of total bases is. The only way to learn that is to use a formula that weights each hit differently based on the total bases it produced.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

Again you keep focusing on total bases, but the formula for total bases is found via a weighted formula. The weight is how many bases that hit produced. When you do the formula to find total bases each hit differs.

This is just math, it isn’t anything other than that. The weight of each hit is compared to the “weight” of the bases. So a double is equal to but if you had 13 doubles and 4 triples and 10 home runs and 30 singles you are going to have to do the math, which again is a weighted formula cause each of those hits has different values, to find out the total bases.

Once that math is calculated then you have the total bases and use that to find the average. Yes if you just looked at slugging as totally bases / by at bats then yes it is not a weighted average.

The weighted part is found when you have to learn what the number of total bases is. The only way to learn that is to use a formula that weights each hit differently based on the total bases it produced.

No, it's not.

The formula to find total bases is (1B*1)+(2B*2)+(3B*3)+(HR*4)=total bases. NOTHING is being averaged. it is just a total. That number is a FIXED number.

Then you are taking that FIXED number, and dividing it by another fixed number (at bats) to come up with an average.

The formula to find out what the total number if bases is NOT a weighted formula. A single is 1 base. A double is 2 bases. A triple is 3 bases. A home run is 4 bases. It is simply a formula to use to find what that total number is, when that number is not directly tracked.

The mistake you are making, is you are not weighing each hit differently. It is simply multiplying each hit by the number of bases earned by getting that hit. In order to figure out slugging percentage, you have to know what the number of total bases is. If that number isn't known, then you have to use a formula to figure it out. That formula is multiplying doubles by 2, triples by 3, and home runs by 4 then adding them to the number of singles, to get the total bases. That is NOT a weighted formula, it is a simple formula to find an unknown number.

[Mackrel829]

Re: OBPS

But, at any rate, it is NOT a weighted average. Because someone who gets 2 singles (2 bases) would have the same SLG percentage as someone who got a double (2 bases)

Is this not the reason that it IS a weighted average?

It took the second player twice as many hits to achieve the same SLG.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

I'll put it simpler.

A single is one base.
10 singles is 10 bases. No formula needed

A double is 2 bases
10 doubles is 20 bases. 10*2=20. That isn't a weighted formula. Just a formula to find out how many total bases 10 doubles is.

A triple is 3 bases.
10 triples is 30 bases. 10*3=30. Again, not a weighted formula. Just a formula to find out how many total bases 10 triples is.

A home run is 4 bases.
10 Home Runs is 40 bases. 10*4=40. Again, not a weighted formula. Just a formula used to find out how many total bases 10 home runs are.

Add them all together, and you get 100. Again, it is NOT a weighted formula, just a formula used to find out how many total bases 10 singles, 10 doubles, 10 triples and 10 home runs is.

Now to figure out slugging percentage, you take 100 (the total bases earned by hits) and divide it by the number of plate appearances, to get the slugging percentage(average)

Again, it is not a weighted formula. Nor is it a weighted average.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

Is this not the reason that it IS a weighted average?

It took the second player twice as many hits to achieve the same SLG.

No. Because slugging percentage doesn't measure the number of hits. Just the number of TOTAL bases (however achieved) divided by the number of at bats it took to achieve those bases.

[Mackrel829]

Re: OBPS

No. Because slugging percentage doesn't measure the number of hits. Just the number of TOTAL bases (however achieved) divided by the number of at bats it took to achieve those bases.

I was actually just about to delete my post as I realised this.

In order to have the same SLG, one player would have to hit two singles, and the other would have to hit a double and nothing. So it hasn't taken the first player twice as long at all.

I did not expect this thread to go so deep lol.

[ExarKub00720]

Re: OBPS

I'll put it simpler.

A single is one base.
10 singles is 10 bases. No formula needed

A double is 2 bases
10 doubles is 20 bases. 10*2=20. That isn't a weighted formula. Just a formula to find out how many total bases 10 doubles is.

A triple is 3 bases.
10 triples is 30 bases. 10*3=30. Again, not a weighted formula. Just a formula to find out how many total bases 10 triples is.

A home run is 4 bases.
10 Home Runs is 40 bases. 10*4=40. Again, not a weighted formula. Just a formula used to find out how many total bases 10 home runs are.

Add them all together, and you get 100. Again, it is NOT a weighted formula, just a formula used to find out how many total bases 10 singles, 10 doubles, 10 triples and 10 home runs is.

The weight of the formula IS the bases though. Every single weighted formula ever has some fixed number that is weighted against something else.

The weighted numbers can’t change.

If you have class that has a four tests that are worth 40% and the the rest of the work is worth 60% the weight stays the same when you do the math. That is another form of a weighted formula.

Another example is GPA. If you get a class that has 2 credits and have a 3.0 but you have a class where you get 1 credit hour but got a 4.0 your average isn’t 7/2 cause each of those credit hours worked the gpa.

Instead the gpa is 3x2 + 2x1 / 3 (total credits) that is how a weighted gpa works which is exactly how a total bases formula works as well.

If you have 3 doubles and 2 singles over 5 at bats the formula would look just the same almost. It would be 3x2 + 2x1 / 5.

The weighted portion of these formulas is always a predetermined fixed number. The weighted number doesn’t go up and down otherwise you couldn’t do the math properly.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

I was actually just about to delete my post as I realised this.

In order to have the same SLG, one player would have to hit two singles, and the other would have to hit a double and nothing. So it hasn't taken the first player twice as long at all.

I did not expect this thread to go so deep lol.

That's the thing I'm trying to explain. Slugging percentage has nothing to do with the number of hits, just simply the total number of bases gained through hits. There is no "weighing some hits higher than others" A hit earns a set number of bases that doesn't change.

This is why OPS is a good indicator of a players value. Because it combines the amount that a player gets on base, PLUS the value of the hits he does get. Looking at each individually only tells part of the story.

[ExarKub00720]

Re: OBPS

I was actually just about to delete my post as I realised this.

In order to have the same SLG, one player would have to hit two singles, and the other would have to hit a double and nothing. So it hasn't taken the first player twice as long at all.

I did not expect this thread to go so deep lol.

While technically correct it does mean the second guys batting average is lower. In terms of a player if your slugging is very close to your batting average it means when you are getting a hit you are not very often going for XBH.

This was my example before but if one player has a .200 avg and a .400 slugging and another guy has .350 avg and .400 slugging the second guy by how these ratios works doesn’t get as many XBH. He does get as many plates though.

Why is this important? In a batting rotation you might want the guy who can get on base more frequently up front and the guy who gets XBH more often behind him in hopes the first guy gets on base and the second drives him in.

This is just one measure of what these formulas try to calculate.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

The weight of the formula IS the bases though. Every single weighted formula ever has some fixed number that is weighted against something else.

The weighted numbers can’t change.

If you have class that has a four tests that are worth 40% and the the rest of the work is worth 60% the weight stays the same when you do the math. That is another form of a weighted formula.

Another example is GPA. If you get a class that has 2 credits and have a 3.0 but you have a class where you get 1 credit hour but got a 4.0 your average isn’t 7/2 cause each of those credit hours worked the gpa.

Instead the gpa is 3x2 + 2x1 / 3 (total credits) that is how a weighted gpa works which is exactly how a total bases formula works as well.

If you have 3 doubles and 2 singles over 5 at bats the formula would look just the same almost. It would be 3x2 + 2x1 / 5.

The weighted portion of these formulas is always a predetermined fixed number. The weighted number doesn’t go up and down otherwise you couldn’t do the math properly.

Your mistake is this.

In the GPA, and the Test example, you are trying to average out individual things that aren't equal.

That is NOT what is happening when determining slugging percentage. In determining slugging percentage, we are finding the average of things that ARE the same (bases earned) by the total number of at bats it took to earn those bases.

The "weight of the formula" is not the bases. There is no weight of the formula.

1 single is 1 base. Thus 1o singles is 1o bases.
1 double is 2 bases. Thus 10 doubles is 20 bases
1 triple is 3 bases. Thus 10 triples would be 30 bases.
1 Home Run is 4 bases. Thus 10 Home Runs is 40 bases.

None of those are weighted formulas. They are a simple formula to determine how many bases x amount of hits are.

Same thing if you add X amounts of each hit. It is still a simple formula, not a weighted formula.

[ktd1976]

Re: OBPS

A double is 2 total bases. How many total bases is 10 doubles?

Is that a weighted equation? NO, of course not. It is just a simple equation used to find the total bases that 10 doubles is.

But somehow asking "how many total bases is 10 singles, 10 doubles, 10 triples, and 10 Home Runs" is a "weighted formula?

It's not. It's the sum of the totals of 4 separate simple formulas.

[ExarKub00720]

Re: OBPS

Your mistake is this.

In the GPA, and the Test example, you are trying to average out individual things that aren't equal.

That is NOT what is happening when determining slugging percentage. In determining slugging percentage, we are finding the average of things that ARE the same (bases earned) by the total number of at bats it took to earn those bases.

The "weight of the formula" is not the bases. There is no weight of the formula.

1 single is 1 base. Thus 1o singles is 1o bases.
1 double is 2 bases. Thus 10 doubles is 20 bases
1 triple is 3 bases. Thus 10 triples would be 30 bases.
1 Home Run is 4 bases. Thus 10 Home Runs is 40 bases.

None of those are weighted formulas. They are a simple formula to determine how many bases x amount of hits are.

Same thing if you add X amounts of each hit. It is still a simple formula, not a weighted formula.

I have never said the weight of the formula was the bases. I have said time and time again it is the hits that must be weighted using the formula to get total bases.

But what do I know spent 10 years get degrees in math heavy fields as well as every single website that ever defines what a slugging percentage is saying it is a weighted average or something to that merit, including MLB themselves which says all hits are not equal in this formula… we are just all collectively wrong.

Life is to short to worry about that. I think everyone who wanted to learn how to use slugging understands it more and whatever minutiae details of how the formula is calculated is literally of no consequence cause it won’t change how it is used.