Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

[CBoller1331]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

I use self imposed trade restrictions involving the trading block, positions of need and a requirement for an even number of players on both team. I disagree that the CPU can't be ripped off in multi-player trades. I could do it easily if I wanted to and expanding to more than 3 player limits would make it easier to rip off the CPU.

I was talking about 2 CPU teams trading with each other. Generally speaking those trades are close to "fair value" (im sure there are some exceptions), they just don't always make a ton of sense.

[tessl]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

I was talking about 2 CPU teams trading with each other. Generally speaking those trades are close to "fair value" (im sure there are some exceptions), they just don't always make a ton of sense.

I pay little attention to what the CPU does to itself but if It's close to fair value then I 'd say leave it alone.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

I pay little attention to what the CPU does to itself but if It's close to fair value then I 'd say leave it alone.

Yeah in my original post I said the value side of things is not that far off, but the motivation behind the CPU trades is what is lacking. They are a little too willing to shop young controllable players just because they are "blocked" by a guy with a higher OVR.

[tessl]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Yeah in my original post I said the value side of things is not that far off, but the motivation behind the CPU trades is what is lacking. They are a little too willing to shop young controllable players just because they are "blocked" by a guy with a higher OVR.

Cardinals traded Alcantara and Gallen for Ozuna because they weren't developing in the Cardinals minor league system. They weren't developing because the pitching gurus in the system were incompetent. They sold Adolis Garcia for cash considerations. Plenty examples IRL of franchises even dumber that what you describe in the game.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Cardinals traded Alcantara and Gallen for Ozuna because they weren't developing in the Cardinals minor league system. They weren't developing because the pitching gurus in the system were incompetent. They sold Adolis Garcia for cash considerations. Plenty examples IRL of franchises even dumber that what you describe in the game.

Neither of those trades disprove my point....

Those only look bad with the benefit of hindsight. Alcantara and Gallen were the 9th and 13th ranked prospects in the Cardinals system at the time of the trade - neither was much of a blue-chipper. The Cardinals were coming off 2 straight seasons of missing the playoffs and needed a bat. Didn't work out great for them, but we see trades like that all the time

Adolis was a 26 year old non-prospect who was DFA'd then traded. The Rangers even DFA'd him 2 years later but we're able to sneak him through waivers.

My point is that in Franchise mode, CPU teams are far too willing to part with their young, pre-arbitration players - especially when they are just entering their competitive window. The example I gave was Jackson Holliday- the CPU seemed determine to trade him because they saw him as being blocked by Gunnar Henderson, but it's very very rare for a team to try and trade the consensus Top prospect in the game.

I'm also not saying they need to completely redo trade logic, it just needs a little tweaking - you just seem to be arguing that they shouldn't even touch it for some reason

[Funkycorm]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Trade logic definitely needs adjusted. Teams are not valuing their players only what they are trying to get. I had to turn on 30 team control for the first time ever in the game. I have everything to auto except trades to manual so only I make trades.

I would settle for an approve trade option like in 2k. It can be toggled on and off, but would allow for every trade to be approved. It would still allow teams to trade without user input but would allow the user to exercise their personal discretion in approving or denying any trades.

[jcar0725]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Trade logic definitely needs adjusted. Teams are not valuing their players only what they are trying to get. I had to turn on 30 team control for the first time ever in the game. I have everything to auto except trades to manual so only I make trades.

I would settle for an approve trade option like in 2k. It can be toggled on and off, but would allow for every trade to be approved. It would still allow teams to trade without user input but would allow the user to exercise their personal discretion in approving or denying any trades.

I am very thankful for 30 team control, so I can undo trades that don't make sense. I actually rarely use it. But I know I can if I need / want to. So I don't really worry too much about the trade logic.

[tessl]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Neither of those trades disprove my point....

Those only look bad with the benefit of hindsight. Alcantara and Gallen were the 9th and 13th ranked prospects in the Cardinals system at the time of the trade - neither was much of a blue-chipper. The Cardinals were coming off 2 straight seasons of missing the playoffs and needed a bat. Didn't work out great for them, but we see trades like that all the time

Adolis was a 26 year old non-prospect who was DFA'd then traded. The Rangers even DFA'd him 2 years later but we're able to sneak him through waivers.

My point is that in Franchise mode, CPU teams are far too willing to part with their young, pre-arbitration players - especially when they are just entering their competitive window. The example I gave was Jackson Holliday- the CPU seemed determine to trade him because they saw him as being blocked by Gunnar Henderson, but it's very very rare for a team to try and trade the consensus Top prospect in the game.

I'm also not saying they need to completely redo trade logic, it just needs a little tweaking - you just seem to be arguing that they shouldn't even touch it for some reason

That's obviously a mistake. Holliday could easily switch to a different position. I understand what you are saying and my point is IRL the people running baseball organizations miscalculate on a regular basis. Alcantara and Gallen were rated poorly within the organization because the people running the Cardinals were incompetent. Gallen did an interview describing what the Cardinals did to him. They wanted him to attend some kind of a training camp after the season and he just wanted to rest his arm. That's why they traded him. They weren't allowing Alcantara to throw a sinker/2 seam fastball which is his best pitch now.

Some managers and front office people prefer the proven veterans. LaRussa traded Dan Haren for Mark Mulder only because LaRussa knew who Mulder was and didn't see Haren's potential. Mulder won 22 games in 4 seasons with the Cardinals. Haren won 153 games - 6 with the Cardinals.

Larussa traded Dansby Swanson for Shelby Miller. He knew Miller.

Alcantara, Gallen, Haren and Swanson were young pre-arbitration. They got traded for a veteran. It happens IRL. Teams trade prospects and sometimes they are stupid trades.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

That's obviously a mistake. Holliday could easily switch to a different position. I understand what you are saying and my point is IRL the people running baseball organizations miscalculate on a regular basis. Alcantara and Gallen were rated poorly within the organization because the people running the Cardinals were incompetent. Gallen did an interview describing what the Cardinals did to him. They wanted him to attend some kind of a training camp after the season and he just wanted to rest his arm. That's why they traded him. They weren't allowing Alcantara to throw a sinker/2 seam fastball which is his best pitch now.

Some managers and front office people prefer the proven veterans. LaRussa traded Dan Haren for Mark Mulder only because LaRussa knew who Mulder was and didn't see Haren's potential. Mulder won 22 games in 4 seasons with the Cardinals. Haren won 153 games - 6 with the Cardinals.

Larussa traded Dansby Swanson for Shelby Miller. He knew Miller.

Alcantara, Gallen, Haren and Swanson were young pre-arbitration. They got traded for a veteran. It happens IRL. Teams trade prospects and sometimes they are stupid trades.

Yep there are definitely dumb trades IRL - not disputing that. I also don't mean to suggest that pre-arb guys should never be traded - obviously that happens IRL too. The CPU is just too eager to get rid of high potential guys at positions of depth just because there's a guy with a higher OVR at the same position - even if the depth chart screen projects them to develop to be better than that guy (or a guy at another position) in the future.

CPU teams don't quite seem to have much of a strategy when constructing their roster, so they will accept any trade as long as it's "fair". They don't seem to have any context of their overall strategy when trading. Since the CPU logic is the same for all teams, so you kind of just get teams swapping pre-arb players for each other, instead of having some teams add veterans aggressively during their competitive window, or tear down during a rebuilding phase. They all sort of just trade for the sake of trading.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Cardinals traded Alcantara and Gallen for Ozuna because they weren't developing in the Cardinals minor league system. They weren't developing because the pitching gurus in the system were incompetent. They sold Adolis Garcia for cash considerations. Plenty examples IRL of franchises even dumber that what you describe in the game.

True. But at no point was Adolis Garcia ever considered a “top prospect”. He received a low signing bonus compared to other Cuban signees at the time. In a time period where every team was trying to snatch up every Cuban available. I think the cardinals even had Randy ArrozRena ant the time who was annother cheap (cheap for a Cuban prospect at the time) Cuban signee who was more highly regarded than Adolis Garcia. Alex Guerrero got 38 million from the dodgers and was basically out of pro ball a year later. The Red Sox gave Rusney Castillo 72 million and he was a huge bust, and spent almost no time in MLB. Basically if you were Cuban between 2010-2018 if you could even throw a baseball they were giving you north of 30 million. Then teams realized that out of all of these island kids they were signing, really only like 5% of them were any good, and started focusing their attention back to the Dominican which was cheaper and had a higher hit rate.

In terms of Gallen and Alcantara, neither of them were ever considered having even remotely all star potential much less cy young potential. I think the book on alcantara was 4th or 5th starter without a lot of reliever risk because he had good control

[MiracleMet718]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

Yep there are definitely dumb trades IRL - not disputing that. I also don't mean to suggest that pre-arb guys should never be traded - obviously that happens IRL too. The CPU is just too eager to get rid of high potential guys at positions of depth just because there's a guy with a higher OVR at the same position - even if the depth chart screen projects them to develop to be better than that guy (or a guy at another position) in the future.

CPU teams don't quite seem to have much of a strategy when constructing their roster, so they will accept any trade as long as it's "fair". They don't seem to have any context of their overall strategy when trading. Since the CPU logic is the same for all teams, so you kind of just get teams swapping pre-arb players for each other, instead of having some teams add veterans aggressively during their competitive window, or tear down during a rebuilding phase. They all sort of just trade for the sake of trading.

I would argue that the trades are more fair this year. Last year I saw both Elly and Witt get traded for D potential middle relievers.

This year I saw Roman Anthony and a small prospect traded for Sandy Alcantara. Would the Sox actually move him in real life? Probably not, but they got a top pitcher in exchange for him so I can’t really be mad at it.

What I would say is the frequency needs to be tweaked because there are too many trades involving big names. I lower the trade frequency slider to avoid it, but I do see big names moving more this year compared to years past when I leave the slider on default.

[tessl]

Re: Trade Logic cant improve until they fix budgets

True. But at no point was Adolis Garcia ever considered a “top prospect”. He received a low signing bonus compared to other Cuban signees at the time. In a time period where every team was trying to snatch up every Cuban available. I think the cardinals even had Randy ArrozRena ant the time who was annother cheap (cheap for a Cuban prospect at the time) Cuban signee who was more highly regarded than Adolis Garcia. Alex Guerrero got 38 million from the dodgers and was basically out of pro ball a year later. The Red Sox gave Rusney Castillo 72 million and he was a huge bust, and spent almost no time in MLB. Basically if you were Cuban between 2010-2018 if you could even throw a baseball they were giving you north of 30 million. Then teams realized that out of all of these island kids they were signing, really only like 5% of them were any good, and started focusing their attention back to the Dominican which was cheaper and had a higher hit rate.

In terms of Gallen and Alcantara, neither of them were ever considered having even remotely all star potential much less cy young potential. I think the book on alcantara was 4th or 5th starter without a lot of reliever risk because he had good control

I recommend watching this interview with Gallen. He discusses not only his trade but Arozarena, Garcia and Alcantara.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVU-bkiyz3E

I posted earlier why the Cardinals didn't value Gallen and Alcantara. Watch the video and Gallen explains the high school Charlie approach the Cardinals were using. They refused to allow Alcantara to throw a sinker. Alcantara's catcher in milb was Andrew Knizner. He detailed all of that in an interview and then got traded. Two future aces weren't developing - that was on the Cardinals.