Question for scea about clutch

[Melkro]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

Thats BS. I'm not saying you are full of BS, but the baseball minds can try to convince me clutch hitting is an illusion all they want....it's just not true. What do you think a good average with RISP means?? It means the guy who's batting .330 with RISP is more clutch than the guy batting .215 with RISP. Maybe Jeter is a poor example of a clutch hitter, or maybe not, I dont know, but I do know that there are some guys that seems to get a hit when their team needs one. I dont know how that can be proven as an illusion.

But that's the thing...go take a look yourself and I think you'll see that over a whole career player's tend to have very similar AVG and AVGw/ RISP. There are seasons here and there, and streaks here and there, but overall there is no statistically significant difference.

SoxFan, I do get what you're saying, and I know you never called players clutch, I just disagree with you (which is fine). In my opinion if there was something to the "some players have a psychological makeup that makes the perform better in the clutch" it would be noticable statistically. If Player A has that makeup his stats should show that over his career otherwise how is there any proof that he has that makeup. if his stats don't show it that means that for every "clutch" hit he gets he ends up with another clutch at bat that is a failure. Of course it's natural that we remember the big hits and forget the failures, but that's what causes this "illusion."

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but until there are the stats to back it up I'm not gonna be convinced that Clutch is anything more then a fallacy.

On that note, don't even get me stated on that fact that RTTS has a clutch rating...LOL. Even if you do believe in the idea of clutch players, should that not be something that my skill and ability in clutch situations determines? lol

[twiztiddarkangelman]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

I think the game would play much better with the clutch ratings toned down. Not alot in most cases, but players with ratings of 99? Give me a break. I'm experimenting with the ratings now and have seen some positive changes IMO.

[CRIP4LIFE]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

i'm not sure how i feel about clutch rating in mlb09 until a dev responds with some sort of info on how it's used/checked in the game.

but as devil's advocate:

measuring one's "clutch" rating against himself, over the course of a real mlb career, is difficult. i agree that ones own stats level out OVER TIME.

however, measuring how player A did in a "clutch" situation versus player B is an actual value that CAN be measured.

if player A hit .333 with RISP and player B hit .247 OVER THE COURSE OF 1 SEASON, then that's a quantifiable stat you could judge and assign a value to. player A was a better "clutch" hitter THAT YEAR than player B.

the real deeper question, imho, is: concerning "clutch" rating and mlb09, is the initial value assigned based on a players entire CAREER "clutch" production or just the prior season (the 2008 mlb real season)?

if the devs based it on the mlb 2008 season only, then i can at least see HOW they could rate a players "clutch" ability.

not saying i agree with it, again until/unless/if/when a dev offers some insight.

[tessl]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

Get rid of it completely? So, you don't want any difference between Jeter and Robinson Cano in the bottom of the 9th, 2 outs and the winning run on 2nd?

Yes, I would like to see an option to turn it off completely. In the situations I referenced, if it was in this game, Mazeroski would have struck out and McCovey would have hit a home run because of some artificial "clutch" rating which pre ordains the outcome. The great players already have superior contact, power, plate vision, etc and will naturally come through more often. Adding clutch to the already superior stats gimmicks the game and puts some players on roids.


That's just my opinion, if I could find out exactly how it works in the game I might change my mind.

[tessl]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

I think if SCEA would expound on what it means in terms of how the game plays, then it might settle things down a bit (remember, that was the real point of the thread which we all strayed from). I'd be curious to hear it as well. I'm just not spending my time worring about it and running constant tests over enjoying the game. More power to those who do, of course. I respect the effort and thoroughness. I'm sure their work could end up rewarding to them in a sense...it's just not for me.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, how does clutch work in the game? When is it activated? Some people insist there is comeback code in the game. Is clutch part of that? Nobody really knows. It would be nice to have a detailed explanation of when clutch is activated and how it affects the game.

[djo201]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

It would be time consuming, but if someone would take a roster and set every player's clutch rating to 50, that would effectively eliminate the "clutch" or "comeback AI" factor.
Just a thought.

Someone is already trying something like that. Check the Comeback Thread for more info

[Melkro]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

if player A hit .333 with RISP and player B hit .247 OVER THE COURSE OF 1 SEASON, then that's a quantifiable stat you could judge and assign a value to. player A was a better "clutch" hitter THAT YEAR than player B.

But if PLAYER A is naturally a .333 hitter and PLAYER B is naturally a .247 ( hitter then there is no proof that either is clutch. Again this comes down to what SoxFan was talking about in defining clutch. The general idea behind clutch performers is that they perform above their general ability in key situations (or at least they don't perform worse in key situations, where a non-clutch player would). Comparing the RISP of two players does not tell you if either is clutch because one player could just be better than the other overall.

You MUST by definition look at the stats of a player and show that said player performs better (over a significant period of time) in a clutch situation then he otherwise normally would. That is where the problem lies because statistical analysis of this has shown over and again that there is no significant difference.

In your above example, yes PLAYER A is a better hitter in the clutch then PLAYER B, but if he's a better hitter in all situations then how can you say he's a clutch hitter (since his performance does not improve in clutch situations)?


In terms of how this applies the the game, PLAYER A would already have the boost he needs to hit better then PLAYER B in that situation by way of his higher contact and power ratings (if he's a natural .333 hitter his basic attribs will get him those stats, more or less). There is no need then for a clutch rating, and any addition of one is likely to make such a player too good in those situations (again it depends on how it's been implamented in the game).

Of course this all comes crashing down if there are really players that hit .250 regularly and .300 in clutch situations. Find a few and you'll have thrown all the non-believers like me a real curveball.

[davewins]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

That's what I'm trying to figure out, how does clutch work in the game? When is it activated? Some people insist there is comeback code in the game. Is clutch part of that? Nobody really knows. It would be nice to have a detailed explanation of when clutch is activated and how it affects the game.

Yeah, interesting topic discussion here. This could contribute to the reason why Swaldo's era is higher with a lead.

I would strongly assume that clutch is "activated" when the CPU is down rather then when they are up. It would just make sense. I could be wrong though, would love to hear SCEA's explanation as to how clutch is applied in the game.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

Yeah, interesting topic discussion here. This could contribute to the reason why Swaldo's era is higher with a lead.

I would strongly assume that clutch is "activated" when the CPU is down rather then when they are up. It would just make sense. I could be wrong though, would love to hear SCEA's explanation as to how clutch is applied in the game.

If "clutch" in the game is tied to the generally accepted meaning of the term, then you're likely right (meaning it's not just a RBI or RISP linked rating, but a modifier of sorts for all "clutch" situations). I'm not sure it's that literal a use of the term in-game though...but I'm admittedly assuming things much like the rest here.

I'm also thinking it would be more than it being activated though. It would probably always be technically "active" but not triggered until the requirements are met for use (much like any other rating, I'd imagine).

I don't really buy into the level of the effect some are claiming/assuming, but I'd also be curious to know the details behind it as well.

On a somewhat related note, one thing I'd like to see SCEA do is expand the ratings a bit. You might be able to appease all sides on this if you do that. As is, I believe clutch is an important part of the overall formula (talking in terms of simulation...I'm willing to bet clutch has little to no effect on a user controlled player...probably as a modifier of sorts at most).

If they added ratings to separate hitter archtypes a bit more, it may help. Maybe a contact/solid contact and Power/Gap power combo. It doesn't have to be these specifically, but I've wanted to see more defined ratings in The Show for some time. I could write a book on pitcher and catcher ratings alone...lol.

Bear in mind, this is all wishlist thoughts from someone with ZERO (maybe less) knowledge of programming, so I have no idea what goes into the implementation. It would be nice if possible though.

[swaldo]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

I think there's something being overlooked here in regards to how clutch ratings can possibly skew statistics in this game.

Let's take an example of a typical .280 average hitter with 500 at bats in a season. He has an excellent clutch rating in the game and he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch" by fans because he hit .360 with runners in scoring position (RISP) during the year or his career. I'll approximate that he faces runners in scoring position once in every 4 at bats.

AB while facing RISP: 125 @ .360 AVG = 45 hits

AB with no RISP: 375 @ .280 AVG = 105 hits

Total hits = 150

Ending season batting average: .300

So this .280 average hitter all of a sudden turned into a .300 hitter because of his clutch success. For every advantage there is a disadvantage. If a batter is a hot clutch hitter then guess what? He will hit below his average in non clutch situations. Does the game account for this?

In the example above he would have a batting average of .253 in situations with no RISP in order to have an ended batting average of .280.

AB while facing RISP: 125 @ .360 AVG = 45 hits

AB with no RISP: 375 @ .253 AVG = 95 hits

Total hits = 140

Ending season batting average: .280

If you are going to put clutch in a game you need to have two ratings - one clutch and one non-clutch.

[tessl]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

I think there's something being overlooked here in regards to how clutch ratings can possibly skew statistics in this game.

Let's take an example of a typical .280 average hitter with 500 at bats in a season. He has an excellent clutch rating in the game and he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch" by fans because he hit .360 with runners in scoring position (RISP) during the year or his career. I'll approximate that he faces runners in scoring position once in every 4 at bats.

AB while facing RISP: 125 @ .360 AVG = 45 hits

AB with no RISP: 375 @ .280 AVG = 105 hits

Total hits = 150

Ending season batting average: .300

So this .280 average hitter all of a sudden turned into a .300 hitter because of his clutch success. For every advantage there is a disadvantage. If a batter is a hot clutch hitter then guess what? He will hit below his average in non clutch situations. Does the game account for this?

In the example above he would have a batting average of .253 in situations with no RISP in order to have an ended batting average of .280.

AB while facing RISP: 125 @ .360 AVG = 45 hits

AB with no RISP: 375 @ .253 AVG = 95 hits

Total hits = 140

Ending season batting average: .280

If you are going to put clutch in a game you need to have two ratings - one clutch and one non-clutch.

True, except risp isn't always clutch. If your team is winning 8-0 and you are batting with the bases loaded I wouldn't consider that clutch. Chances are you are facing a mop up pitcher and will have a better than normal chance of getting a hit but it isn't clutch.

Of course until we hear from scea we don't know if clutch is activated in that situation or not.

[PitholeCreek]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

One thing often overlooked is the fact that the league as a whole hits better with runners on-base. Take a look at the OPS for the American League last year in the following situations:

Bases empty: .735
RISP: .780
Bases loaded: .826

This happens because bad pitchers put more guys on-base than good pitchers. Chances are you're not going to be facing an All-Star in those situations.

[monk31]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

One thing often overlooked is the fact that the league as a whole hits better with runners on-base. Take a look at the OPS for the American League last year in the following situations:

Bases empty: .735
RISP: .780
Bases loaded: .826

This happens because bad pitchers put more guys on-base than good pitchers. Chances are you're not going to be facing an All-Star in those situations.

Yes, now there's some logic! Very well said. Pitchers who aren't as good are facing hitters in situations with RISP more often than those who are better, or who are on a good streak!

[oldskoolmaddenfanz27]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

clutch exists in every sport, including baseball..

[JT30]

Re: Question for scea about clutch

clutch exists in every sport, including baseball..

really? I'd like to hear why, how, when, etc.