Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

[jmik58]

I previously started this thread in the sliders section, but I think it's progressed beyond a sliders issue.

I would post my research and write-up on this in the forum, but it's very long and has some very large screen shots from the game that I used.

Click the article link to read it. Return here to discuss it so that all of the comments are kept in one place at OS.

Fixing God-Like Outfielders

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I see that 120 people have viewed this thread but no one has commented on it. I guess I should have just posted the article here. The purpose of this isn't a recreational look-at-what-i-found piece that you look over and pass through. I think this deserves some discussion.

______________________________________________

MLB 10: The Show has built quite nicely on it’s 2009 version to become one of the better sports game on the PS3, if not all time. They have practically stolen a page from EA Sports, because if it’s in the game…it’s in The Show.


As good as The Show is, we have to accept that nothing can be perfect. Not even in videogame land.


Today I’d like to address a component (not sure if “issue” is the right word) of MLB 10: The Show that I think needs to be addressed and fixed by SCEA. I’m not asking for an immediate patch of the issue (there I said it), though I wouldn’t argue with that. If nothing else, I would be fulfilled knowing that SCEA might take this data and opinion seriously enough to give it a look.
Maybe it’s something worth fixing for next year?


The issue/thing/component/problem I’m talking about today is what I like to call the “God-Like Outfielder Ability.”


Since The Show first came to Playstation 3, gamers have been sounding off on the realism (or lack thereof) regarding the amount of and types of extra base hits when playing the game.


Several theories have come into play, including the adjustment of outfielder speed, outfielder reaction time, and hitting sliders. I have been a part of the club that thought the fielders moved too swiftly and with too much precision in their routes to the ball. MLB 09: The Show did something about this “perfect angles” issue, but the fielders were still too fast…or so it seemed.


Since purchasing MLB 10: The Show I’ve paid close attention to this issue as it’s the one glaring error I see on the board for this videogame franchise in the area of gameplay. Do we have to rely on roster editing once again to minimize the speed of outfielders for the sake of realism?


The short answer is maybe. But the long term answer may be found by making a subtle adjustment to the programming of where outfielders are positioned.


That’s right. This could all just be a simple issue that is fixed by correcting the programming that tells the fielders where to line up.
Many baseball coaches and experts disagree on a lot of things in the strategic part of the game of baseball. However, positioning of fielders, namely outfielders, is something that is rarely discussed – and for good reason. There’s a reasonably accepted thought as to where the players should line up. And as you’ll see below, The Show misses this part of the game – not quite by a mile – but enough to alter your ability to get extra-base hits.


The lateral or horizontal alignment in MLB 10: The Show isn’t the problem here. Instead, I’m proposing that the depth – or distance from home plate – is the problem.


Typically for Major Leaguers, a left or right fielder should position themselves at a depth of 270 to 285 feet under “normal” circumstances (Remember that term “normal alignment” when we get to the images below). Granted, a Major League baseball outfielder might be slightly deeper, but not more than 290 feet on average. A center fielder should line up at a depth of 280 to 300 feet from home plate. With that being said, you also have “shallow” and “deep” alignments that will be addressed below, keep those in mind.


A deep alignment would likely place a fielder approximately fifty feet further from home plate, while a shallow alignment would put them that much closer. So, for the sake of reference, I’ll say that left and right fielders play at shallow/normal/deep alignments of 230/270/320 feet. The center fielder then would be in the area of 250/300/350 feet.


Now let’s take a look at those three depth alignments in MLB 10: The Show.

In the above image, the center fielder is positioned in a “normal” alignment. Based on the scaling in the picture, the fielder is aligned approximately twenty-seven feet from the warning track – about thirty feet from the wall. The outfield wall behind him is slightly over four hundred feet from home plate. That places this fielder at a depth of approximately 370-375 feet in a “normal” alignment. This is about seventy (70) feet deeper than is accurate for a normal depth. (Click Image above for full size)

This next screen shot shows the same player in a “deep” alignment. As you can see, he is aligned approximately twenty-four feet from the warning track. This measurement places him just short of thirty feet from the wall that is about 400 feet from home plate, meaning his depth is around 375 feet – almost twenty-five feet deeper than he should be playing in a “deep” alignment. This, however, is the most accurate of the three alignments on The Show. However, note that the difference between a deep and normal alignment is only about five to ten feet! Without the red line it’s hard to tell a difference in the two. Not good. (Click image above for full size)

Finally, the shallow alignment places the fielder approximately thirty-five feet from the warning track – or about forty feet from the wall. This places him three hundred sixty (360) feet from home – a good alignment if you’re playing deep in real life…not shallow. This particular alignment is over one hundred (100+) feet deeper than it should be. And again, the difference between shallow and normal is only about five to ten feet – hardly an adjustment. (Click image above for full size)


Now before you rip the pictures apart. Keep in mind, if the measuring tool of the grass lines is off – it’s only by a foot at most, which creates a plus/minus possibility of ten feet – hardly enough to suffice for proper alignment.


As for the pictures, the red line is the exact same one transferred between Adobe Photoshop image files that were exactly the same size. I also took the pictures with the screen shot option on the PS3. I did not zoom in at all for the purpose of consistency. I realize that an overhead shot might help decide depth as well, but that would require the shot to be zoomed out – degrading the consistency of the three photos for comparison purposes.


Where to go from here? That I can’t say. I hope others will do some testing and expand the discussion to see if we can get some movement on this issue. SCEA has proven they listen and are willing to work through such problems.

[GEORGE LUZ]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Very nice article! Don't know why no-one is commenting... probably the most painstaking, time-consuming article written in quite some time.
I like your argument but one problem I foresee. I would list your sources where you got the typical mlb outfield depths from because if you don't no one is going to claim your material as credible. Let the discussion begin!

[NiteLordz]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

i would be curious to hear someone justify or disagree with this description.

would be very interested to hear if this is something that we could get fixed, or even a workaround.

[drolouis]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I cant disagree with you research, but I do disagree that the out fielders have god like ability. From my experience after playing about 20 or so games in my franchise, I dont see this. I have seen the cpu take bad angles, play the ball of the wall the wrong way, and I definitley have hit my fair share of doubles. I have hit about 4 triples and I got thrown around 3 times trying to stretch a double. I play on hall of fame pitching and hitting with default sliders.

[Woodweaver]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Without an over head view from a fixed point, I am a little suspect of your distance measurements. Without knowing the angle of the camera frustum to the plane of the playing field, it is possible that there may be (significant) inaccuracies.

Regardless of that point, if we accept your measurements, then doesn't it contradict your premise? If the outfielders are so out of position given conventional baseball wisdom/strategy, then they should not be "god-like". In fact, just the opposite would be true, no?

[Dabeeds]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Interesting. Wouldn't there be a alot more singles dropping in front of the outfielders then, if their playing so deep ?

I'm not trying to say that's not happening, or anything. I only played a few games so far, myself. Once the real season kicks off, i'll start getting into it more.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Without an over head view from a fixed point, I am a little suspect of your distance measurements. Without knowing the angle of the camera frustum to the plane of the playing field, it is possible that there may be (significant) inaccuracies.

Regardless of that point, if we accept your measurements, then doesn't it contradict your premise? If the outfielders are so out of position given conventional baseball wisdom/strategy, then they should not be "god-like". In fact, just the opposite would be true, no?

First off, let me say that the point of this thread is NOT to dissect the title of the thread. Nor does it do any good to focus on a loosely used term "god-like" and try to disprove anything because of that. There is a much larger point being discussed here beyond a title or phrase in the title.

I realize that the images aren't scientific to a ruler's inch when measuring their alignment. You can tell in the images that the players are standing in the grass rows, and those rows are approximately half as wide as the players are tall.

Regardless of how accurate the images show exact alignment from home plate, they do show how little the players move in each alignment. You have to acknowledge that aspect at least.

As for the contradiction you are claiming. The original thread that I started regarding "god-like" outfielder ability was in the sliders section. We all were discussing how it seemed that the outfielders have the ability to run down everything in the gaps. This isn't an issue of "I can't hit doubles." It's an issue of "That ball should not be run down in the gap," or "That ball should have landed over his head."

Therefore, the term "god-like" was used loosely to demonstrate that the fielders were more capable than their human counterparts. I didn't feel like typing out a 40-word thread title that specifically states what the exact issue is.

Last year I started a thread called "RTTS Crash and Burn" ... Nothing sped head-on into a brick wall and burst into flames, in fact it was a programming error. Does that mean I didn't have a point about there being a problem when the game shut off after training in September? No.

Anyways, the issue has grown into what looks to be inaccurate alignment of outfielders. The "god-like" abilities had more to do with an assumption that they were lined up correctly and were still running down everything in the gaps and over their heads.

I suppose now the appropriate title of the thread should be: "How to fix the alignment issue with outfielders that previously appeared to give them god-like abilities to run down balls in the gap, given the assumption that they were lined up correctly, but now appear to not be aligned up correctly."

But the bigger point is that I honestly think the realism of types of extra base hits (not amount) is affected directly by improper outfield alignment (namely, Depth).

I would be glad to take some overhead shots. I'm afraid of the validity of their consistency though because i can't control the exact amount of zoom in/out when tilting to an overhead view.

As always, let's keep the discussion going on this. If you want to see for yourself, take some screens and post them here as well. Maybe we're on to something, maybe not.

My life doesn't hinge on this being correct or being fixed, but I'd like to think if there is something here that SCEA will take a look at it.

[Dabeeds]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

How about just naming it " Misaligned Outfielders" ??

Just kidding, man. The name of the thread is not what this is about.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Ok, I got some overhead shots that show more of what I mentioned above. What it appears is that the Deep Alignment is spot on where it should be, which no one would refute.

It appears that Normal and Shallow are too far deep still (see images for specifics).

Again, when players are playing too deep for where they should be, it creates unrealistically low amounts of doubles to the gaps and over the head of fielders when in normal or shallow alignments.

If you're wondering where I got the depth numbers... I used to play, coach, and I've spoken with coaches on the proper alignment of outfielders (including for MLB players).

I also noticed another thing while doing this research of The Show. The "straight away" alignment has the CF in a perfect line with the pitcher and home plate. This is a HUGE no-no for anyone who knows anything about playing center field. Outfielders still shade to one side or another when they are "straight away."

This is a subtle thing, but it does make a difference. Before the importance of accuracy in hitting and pitching and ball physics in a game ... the alignment of players has to be accurate.




(Shallow Alignment vs. where it should be)


(Normal alignment vs. where it should be)


(Deep Alignment vs. where it should be)

Everyone has their own reasons for playing a game, and more importantly what makes it special for them. The Show 10 is so close to being phenomenal in gameplay that I would love for small tweaks like this to be made to set it over the top. If we can care so passionately whether Bobby Joe has the purple bracelet added to his accessories list, then we have to discuss issues like this.

[dodgerblue]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I appreciate your thorough write up and support. It is a well thought out presentation. One question I have though, and by the way I think that outfielders get to too many balls rather than them shooting the gaps or over the head of the outfielders, is how do you know its all in the positioning?

Personally I think part of the problem is the trajectory of many fly balls... although I really don't have the proof or presentation you have. I think the balls are hit with so much air under them on many occasions that it makes it easier for them to be run down and caught. At any rate I have tried slowing down the outfielder speed as many have done in their slider sets I might add.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I appreciate your thorough write up and support. It is a well thought out presentation. One question I have though, and by the way I think that outfielders get to too many balls rather than them shooting the gaps or over the head of the outfielders, is how do you know its all in the positioning?

Personally I think part of the problem is the trajectory of many fly balls... although I really don't have the proof or presentation you have. I think the balls are hit with so much air under them on many occasions that it makes it easier for them to be run down and caught. At any rate I have tried slowing down the outfielder speed as many have done in their slider sets I might add.

I think that's a very valid point about the trajectory of balls that are hit. The only thing is that the trajectory can hypothetically be influenced by some of the sliders. My understanding of the solid hits slider means that when moved to the right (increased) it would create more line drives instead of weak pop-ups.

Unfortunately though, there isn't a slider to adjust the positioning of fielders to fine tune it more accurately. I'm not saying the positioning is everything, but at the very least it's something that looks to be inaccurate (and potentially affecting the game negatively).

[Speedy]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

If I'm not mistakened, Nem & the other CD guys rose this same point about OF depth and they were told by the devs it is to balance out the hits (singles, doubles, triples, gap hits, etc.).

**Don't quote me on this but I believe that's the answer was.

[GEORGE LUZ]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

So if I understand this right, here are the depth measurements. (in feet)

...........In-game depth....Real-life depth

Shallow........300................250

Normal ........330 ...............300

Deep...........350................350

As we can see, outfield depth for deep is spot on.

Also, we can see that shallow in-game = normal real-life. So it seems the moral of the story is to set your outfield depth and the CPU depth to shallow to make it as realistic as possible.

[chuckm1961]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

So it seems the moral of the story is to set your outfield depth and the CPU depth to shallow to make it as realistic as possible.

Unless the programmers put the outfielders where they did because it gave the proper balance to gameplay.

In which case, the developers knew they were sacrificing a bit of realism (proper OF positioning) for higher-priority realism (realistic hit totals, extra-base hits) ... and your changes would then lead to LESS realism.