Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

**cardsleadtheway** · 09-27-2010, 07:49 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by countryboy

I wasn't suggesting that you wanted attributes removed, but that you want the user input to have more weight.

Yes and no. Ideally, I would like the attributes to play more of a role in how a player performs when doing "it" right, and for the player to have to do "it" right in order to get desired results. I know there are instances where someone like Vlad will swing at a ball in the dirt and manage to hit a double, but these are the exceptions not the rule. I guess I feel like the reward for doing something right is not as pronounced as it should be, nor is the punishment for failure. Attributes seem to me to determine the reward and punishment more than doing "it" right does. If you are seeing something different, well then cool. I am not seeing it at such a clip that it makes me want to throw away the game.

As for predetermined outcomes, the only time I feel these exist is in errors and stole bases (although there are times that I want to blame my meltdowns on comeback code, the empirical evidence just doesn't back me up). I have had errors announced before the ball gets to the fielder when I hit the pause button. Now obviously there is no way that I have user input at this point. The same happens for stolen bases. You press a button and let the ratings take over. It matters not when you press the button (save for the jump early steal that only works on humans), all that matters is your ratings.

**swaldo** · 09-27-2010, 11:38 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by countryboy

No one is fussy. You've stated throughout the thread that the outcomes are random and predetermined and I've challenged you on them. But instead of addressing them head on, you post, well much like you did with the part I deleted, which is a long drawn out post and does very little to address what one has asked of you.

It doesn't matter if ratings & other factors are filtered through a random number generator or calculated by a formula. Either way each would be set up so long term stats would look the same if you compared them.

So you win and lets say it's a formula, big deal? The discussion was about putting more control in a users hands. Instead, you focus on the fact I said "random" and brought out the little popcorn guy (

) as if you "got me" or something. If you avoid doing stuff like this and instead stay on the main topic people won't have to drag on with you and turn threads into rubbish.

**Knight165** · 09-28-2010, 12:41 AM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by swaldo

It doesn't matter if ratings & other factors are filtered through a random number generator or calculated by a formula. Either way each would be set up so long term stats would look the same if you compared them.

So you win and it's a formula, big deal? The discussion was about putting more control in a users hands. Instead, you focus on the fact I said "random" and brought out the little popcorn guy (

) as if you "got me" or something. If you avoid doing stuff like this and instead stay on the main topic people won't have to drag on with you and turn threads into rubbish.

Funny....I feel people are having to drag on with you.

Either way...
I feel...if you put too much control in the users hands..........................
..................................getting......... ......................further.............
......................and .................................................. ...................
...........further................................ ......away.............................from....... ....................................SIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMM play!

It's a pretty good balance right now IMO...and should be getting even more difficult IMO.

M.K.
Knight165

**cardsleadtheway** · 09-28-2010, 12:48 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

I think you are right Knight. There will always be a need for balance, and it is pretty good right now. The debate will always exist in any sports game as to how to balance sim versus user control. If you go too far towards user control, well then you have those other arcade games that exist today. If you go too far towards sim, you might as well not buy the game and put the money towards going to the ball park. The Show is a pretty good balance.

The only downside to balance, for me anyway, is that you know those D potential AAAA player types will remain so. You all know the guys I am talking about. That player that you might be the only one of your friends that admits to liking him because he has that hustle to him, or that particular swagger, or maybe the retro mustache or long hair. That guy that you really want to succeed at the highest level, but in you heart know that it ain't gonna happen. Yeah that guy.

**swaldo** · 09-28-2010, 02:15 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by Knight165

Funny....I feel people are having to drag on with you.

Either way...
I feel...if you put too much control in the users hands..........................
..................................getting......... ......................further.............
......................and .................................................. ...................
...........further................................ ......away.............................from....... ....................................SIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMM play!

It's a pretty good balance right now IMO...and should be getting even more difficult IMO.

And this coming from a guy who plays "Manage Only" mode. At least that's what you've said in the past - playing an occassional exhibition game for testing purposes. So basically you prefer a game that looks like a TV broadcast with the statistical accuracy of a text based game.

There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not trying to be confrontational or disrespectfull. But lets face it, the suggestions I made apparently are useless to you because you don't play "arcade" mode. And since you didn't like the ideas I think it's fair to ask why you don't like to play arcade mode?

I like text based games, they are great to play on the road in a laptop. But if I'm at home playing a videogame on a 46 inch HDTV I want to move some sticks! So to me "Manage Only" mode would be too boring, but that's just me. For you though what in arcade mode is lacking so much that it doesn't make you want to play it?

**Heroesandvillains** · 09-28-2010, 04:06 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Just my opinion here Swaldo, but I read all if Knights posts. He's probably the single most constructive member at OS.

The question to him about "what's lacking with arcade mode" really isn't fair.

He's said numerous time that MOM mode allows him to play GM/Commisioner.

The question could be, "why do you like MOM mode so much?" And he could explain to you it's features, etc. But, he doesn't ever say a bad word about playing. Infact, he encourages MOM players to play every once in a while.

Your view on his approach is kind of backwards.

**countryboy** · 09-28-2010, 06:54 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by swaldo

It doesn't matter if ratings & other factors are filtered through a random number generator or calculated by a formula. Either way each would be set up so long term stats would look the same if you compared them.

So you win and lets say it's a formula, big deal? The discussion was about putting more control in a users hands. Instead, you focus on the fact I said "random" and brought out the little popcorn guy (

) as if you "got me" or something. If you avoid doing stuff like this and instead stay on the main topic people won't have to drag on with you and turn threads into rubbish.

LMAO!!!!

Thanks, I needed that. Been a rough day.

**JaSnake16** · 09-28-2010, 08:07 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Wow, Ive been away for a LOOOOOONNNNNNNNNG time, but hey a ratings discussion would wake me up, LOL.

Originally posted by cardsleadtheway

Yes and no. Ideally, I would like the attributes to play more of a role in how a player performs when doing "it" right, and for the player to have to do "it" right in order to get desired results. I know there are instances where someone like Vlad will swing at a ball in the dirt and manage to hit a double, but these are the exceptions not the rule. I guess I feel like the reward for doing something right is not as pronounced as it should be, nor is the punishment for failure. Attributes seem to me to determine the reward and punishment more than doing "it" right does. If you are seeing something different, well then cool. I am not seeing it at such a clip that it makes me want to throw away the game.

I think the Show does an admirable job of what Cards mentions already but i hope it can be tightened up further to promote further realism. Im sure everyone has seen plenty of examples of this when both the user is hitting and pitching in some results. Yet, ratings need to play a huge role in the end result, baseball (no matter how you wanna look at it) always seems to boil back down to its numbers and the numbers always differentiate the great players from the truly average. Its what makes the game unique. Think about it, when future generations look back to determine how great a player was, it is always the statistics that are glossed over. Ratings are the representation of those statistics.

**Knight165** · 09-28-2010, 10:02 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by swaldo

And this coming from a guy who plays "Manage Only" mode. At least that's what you've said in the past - playing an occassional exhibition game for testing purposes. So basically you prefer a game that looks like a TV broadcast with the statistical accuracy of a text based game.

There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not trying to be confrontational or disrespectfull. But lets face it, the suggestions I made apparently are useless to you because you don't play "arcade" mode. And since you didn't like the ideas I think it's fair to ask why you don't like to play arcade mode?

I like text based games, they are great to play on the road in a laptop. But if I'm at home playing a videogame on a 46 inch HDTV I want to move some sticks! So to me "Manage Only" mode would be too boring, but that's just me. For you though what in arcade mode is lacking so much that it doesn't make you want to play it?

I wouldn't say they are useless.
In fact....I hope they do add a new analog stick pitching and batting mode. As a matter of fact, without knowing anything "inside" at all, my guess is you absolutely will see that....if not for '11 in a future version.
But I think that mode is absolutely going to be dependent on attributes, much like the current modes and I get the feeling that is where you and I part ways.
I just don't see where lending too much emphasis on user control as opposed to a balance of user/ratings has a place in an MLB simulation. A generic baseball game, that doesn't try and mimic the MLB in any way....I could see it, but even in that type of environment, there would have to be some way to hinder user control in order to have some semblance of a baseball game. What fun would it to hit .550 every year while the rest of the league(which would rely on ratings I assume) is struggling to break .350? I think that's already one of the major complaints of some guys...that even LEGEND is a bit easy now.
Which I will answer the last part...your question...and it's the exact thing that you want more of!....user input often causes a skewed stat outcome as compared to players in real life.
For me...I probably have as much chance of getting a hit with 35 rated contact hitter as I do with a 95 rated hitter. Very little

....but a good player probably has a better chance of seeing more realistic results. I have a feeling that by tipping the scale to TOO much user control....good players will have even low rated hitters batting well above .300....much like getting the groove of the pitching meter(which I am MUCH too good at for my liking) and never really throwing balls unless I like and getting way too many strikeouts, with even poor pitchers. That's why I reverted back to the classic mode of pitching, which puts much more emphasis on the attributes in determining a pitch.
I think it's nearly impossible to come up with something that gives more user control(I'm sure EVERY game has hidden cripples in it somewhere...in order to keep the user from simply mastering even the most difficult levels)...whether they show it to you or not is another case.
On a final note, I would never just dismiss anyone's ideas...I think yours are good......I think they just need to be mixed in with a different type of system.
Perhaps in a more user dependent game....they could employ some sort of Madden IQ, where the user would pitch/hit/field a set number of plays and the game would determine the "cripples" in order to give the best sim experience.....and maybe give you the chance to re-adjust through another run through the system in order as you feel under/overwhelmed with the game.

M.K.
Knight165

**jdl24** · 09-28-2010, 10:51 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

This game is one of my all time favorites. I have played over 115 games and still find myself not being able to sim the last few games of my A's franchise, even though I won't make the playoffs. The one first I wish we could do in this game, which most sports games won't let us do as well is to create players during franchise/seasonal play. This wouild be an awesome feature if able to be added to next year's game.

**HustlinOwl** · 09-29-2010, 10:39 AM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

all of this is like in NBA 2K11, asking for a perfect release shot to go in every time is not realistic and asking for every perfect timing meatball to be a solid hit/HR is not realistic.

**Pared** · 09-29-2010, 11:30 AM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

Originally posted by swaldo

People can call it "arcadey" but Ben Brinkman, the dev who originally created the "Hitters Eye" did it to make the game more lifelike.

So note the words and terms he used: "Authentic" and "Batter picking up the spin." I'll agree putting colored balls in a game is obviously not realistic, but the spirit of the idea is very sim. And I'll agree for newcomers it may be jarring, but if you educate people (in user manuals and in-game tutorials) why it's in the game and how it's to be used I think most people would warm up to it.

And I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I put my ideas out there and people keep asking me questions, criticize and in more than one case disrespect so I'm just responding.

Brinkman could have used any wording: Authentic, Real, "smell the hot dogs..." That doesn't mean anything when we're talking about guys that don't want little flashing balls and colors to infiltrate their game right now. I was one of MVP's biggest fans and I always turned that option off because it removed me from the experience of playing real baseball.

The Show has moved more and more towards sim, including the option to remove the visual aids of guess pitch so more users can have a visually realistic game. Asking for something that was in MVP because you liked it is entirely different than asking for something to help pick up movement on a pitch.

Currently, the pitchers grip the ball differently based on each pitch. They also hide the ball differently based on their motions. While their motions are 1:1 perfect representations of what the developers have created, the technology isn't there to modify these based on pitch types.

And visually picking up on a pitch will differ based on the monitor and resolution you are using to play your game.

I don't see what else is there to discuss on my end aside to simply offer to you that it seems like many disagree with you while others just want the flashing colored baseballs as a "solution" to a problem a good amount of people don't see. Personally, it doesn't make sense to argue such a thing and again just comes off to me as an argument simply to argue.

To each their own.

**cardsleadtheway** · 09-29-2010, 01:55 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

I just don't understand what the problem is Pared. If you could shut off the color visual aid for MVP 05, then why couldn't the same option be available for The Show. It wouldn't bother you at all since you could just shut it off while those of us that like it could use it. Guess pitch is 10 times more unrealistic than the flashing color and 100 times more distracting.

I am not saying that the color flash was the perfect solution, but it seems to be the only solution thus far. I play with the PCI on, which is unrealistic since there is no such thing as a PCI in real life, and yet totally realistic in that every batter knows where his swing will be and how much of the plate it covers. So having a big yellow oval in the middle of the plate is not realistic, what it represents is very realistic. The same for the flashing balls. While they don't really flash, there is a recognition necessary for survival at the big league level. Those players that don't pick up on it, don't last very long in the Majors. So I ask again, what is wrong with adding a visual cue that varies in intensity based on the attributes of the pitcher?

**Pared** · 09-29-2010, 02:38 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

I'm always FOR options... but you're basically asking them to rip something that another game did for the sake of doing it.

I doubt they'd feel good about that.

Who knows. I can talk to them about it, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

**cardsleadtheway** · 09-29-2010, 04:33 PM

Re: Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

You mean like the pitching meter?

Seriously though, if they can come up with a better way, cool. I don't have quite the creative ability coupled with the specific know how to accomplish something like that.

In the end, this is still the greatest game out there. I really wouldn't want anything implemented that would take away from the testing phase. We certainly don't want the amount of bugs to crop up this time around.

If you do have the ability to make the suggestions, please, please, please see about a franchise importing option. I hate to put so much work into my franchise only to start over again. I would love to play my same franchise with the yearly upgrades. Just a fantasy I have.

Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

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