Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Classic pitching is really easy to understand. You pick your pitch, your location, your velocity, and everything else is determined by your pitcher's ratings. It's only very slightly more complicated than High Heat's pitching system. The longer you hold X to throw a pitch, the more velocity you get, it should take no longer than 5 minutes of practicing with it to get a feel for the velocity input. There's no secrets, it's the most simple interface out of all of the pitching interfaces in the game. I used to use classic pitching for years because I never liked the meter but I now use analog.

I understand your opinion on this, and sort of expected someone to say this when I made my post...

But I always feel like I'm doing something wrong. Not that I necessarily am, but I'd feel more comfortable with the interface if there was no grey area on how to vary one's pitches.

For instance: Let's suppose I want to throw a sequence of pitches that best utilizes a pitcher's overall control and pitch control ratings. On the meters, it's obvious. It's marked by the line. Anywhere above that line, and control takes a hit...while velocity and break presumably get utilized nearer said pitcher's max ratings. So, with classic, how long does one hold X in order to replicate this?

Basically, to keep on the OP's subject, no one really KNOWS for certain how the interface works. We can all assume...and be correct in our assumptions...but the only first hand info directly from SCEA came at Community Day, when Nemesis was told that vibration equals max effort.

Everything else is conjecture. Pure (educated) speculation.

[nomo17k]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Classic pitching is really easy to understand. You pick your pitch, your location, your velocity, and everything else is determined by your pitcher's ratings. It's only very slightly more complicated than High Heat's pitching system. The longer you hold X to throw a pitch, the more velocity you get, it should take no longer than 5 minutes of practicing with it to get a feel for the velocity input. There's no secrets, it's the most simple interface out of all of the pitching interfaces in the game. I used to use classic pitching for years because I never liked the meter but I now use analog.

I think h&v is referring to the inner details of the interface that would help us play more realistic "simulation" game, things like making baseball stats being roughly in line with real life, etc. Yes the interface itself is simple. Yes some of us appear to overanalyze for the sake of attaining more realistic results... But I actually take it as a sign that the game is pretty darn good to even let us think about playing it that way. It's still an arcade game (all video games are), but we think about these things.

And as for the depth I actually agree with TripleThreat. But I don't think the game itself needs to be needlessly deep... it's a simulation so it can only be as deep as baseball the sport itself anyway. Personally I think the devs know what they are doing, like having pitch speed very fast so that hitting is always reasonably difficult and depends a lot on our reaction (which is true in real life) etc., rather than implementing a better arcade type hitting system. That sort of thing instills confidence... (to me at least)...

It's just some totally innocent info aren't disclosed that makes certain things mysterious. I don't think we are taking about the devs not disclosing how the game AI works, etc.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Basically, to keep on the OP's subject, no one really KNOWS for certain how the interface works. We can all assume...and be correct in our assumptions...but the only first hand info directly from SCEA came at Community Day, when Nemesis was told that vibration equals max effort.

Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't the vibration thing added this year to Classic pitching? If the dev says that's max velocity, then tapping the button is minimum velocity. And, just fooling around with it for a few minutes should give you a good idea for the range of velocity the interface offers you. I used to think that the velocity could be tied to how hard you pressed X as I naturally pressed X harder when I wanted to get more velocity, and all the PS3's (and PS2's) buttons are pressure sensitive except for start, select, R3, and L3. Even then, without being 100% sure, I was able to fully pitch with classic for years, and never felt there was some secret. Should it be in the manual? Yes.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't the vibration thing added this year to Classic pitching? If the dev says that's max velocity, then tapping the button is minimum velocity. And, just fooling around with it for a few minutes should give you a good idea for the range of velocity the interface offers you. I used to think that the velocity could be tied to how hard you pressed X as I naturally pressed X harder when I wanted to get more velocity, and all the PS3's (and PS2's) buttons are pressure sensitive except for start, select, R3, and L3. Even then, without being 100% sure, I was able to fully pitch with classic for years, and never felt there was some secret. Should it be in the manual? Yes.

I hear you.

But pitches do some funny things when X is held beyond vibration. So, to me, 'max effort' isn't necessarily the ceiling of the Classic interface's roof.

[Knight165]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Guys asking for the inner workings(coded items) of the game might be asking a bit much.
Like classic pitching......you know how it works, what more would do you want? The formulas? I don't think that's coming.

Now....I think ryan should have made a different title to the thread.
It's not "is it too deep"...but should there be more in the manual.
The more I think about it...yes...there probably should be.

-training...everyone thinks(and is right) that while some things seem correct to do....who knows what it actually accomplishes...and that makes it a complete mystery to most. This could use some 'splainin'
-facilities,banking,transport...media...all of these things could be explained a bit in details.
They could have added in that potentials can change and what MIGHT facilitate these changes.....also when they added the new pickoffs...those could have been added.
The docs have been updated, with that I could agree.

But only on the options/controls and such, but not on the inner workings of the game itself.

M.K.
Knight165

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Guys asking for the inner workings(coded items) of the game might be asking a bit much.
Like classic pitching......you know how it works, what more would do you want? The formulas? I don't think that's coming.

Does anyone remember Nemesis' Classic 'cheat sheet' from last year? The one where he lays out how long to hold the button from the windup, how long to hold from the stretch, etc.

There were endless threads last year debating on how this interface worked. Some swore on multiple tapping, some swore on press and release...

So this year, SCEA introduces a single vibration, and all is now supposed to be fully comprehendible?

To the OP's point: Nemesis does not work for SCEA. He a CD invitee. And if I recall, his explanation of how he came up with his tutorial post was from experience...not from Ramone, Kolby or Brian...

And if the entry of vibration into the interface is truly max effort...and let's assume it's always worked this way, just without the rumble...then Nemesis' well-thought out/incredibly helpful post was WRONG.

I don't want, or care to know the formulas or secret sauce. It would ruin the experience for me, and would give SCEA's competition a leg up.

Knight, you did really nail it in your overall point, though. It's not too deep of a game. It's too thin of a manual. Which is not SCEA's fault anyway. SCEA SD puts out the greatest series I've ever known with their MLB title...I'm sure if they could, they'd give us a binder of information with our purchase. And we all know how incredibly helpful all of the SCEA dev's are on here (including Woodweaver, whom I left out above). We're fortunate and privileged for that, to say the least.

[Bobhead]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Guys asking for the inner workings(coded items) of the game might be asking a bit much.
Like classic pitching......you know how it works, what more would do you want? The formulas? I don't think that's coming.

Now....I think ryan should have made a different title to the thread.
It's not "is it too deep"...but should there be more in the manual.
The more I think about it...yes...there probably should be.

-training...everyone thinks(and is right) that while some things seem correct to do....who knows what it actually accomplishes...and that makes it a complete mystery to most. This could use some 'splainin'
-facilities,banking,transport...media...all of these things could be explained a bit in details.
They could have added in that potentials can change and what MIGHT facilitate these changes.....also when they added the new pickoffs...those could have been added.
The docs have been updated, with that I could agree.

But only on the options/controls and such, but not on the inner workings of the game itself.

M.K.
Knight165

You could argue that ideally, nothing should be revealed about the inner workings of the game, but developers are only human, and games/consoles have limitations. I want to know exactly what causes my pitcher to lose or gain confidence, because the fact is that it will not be exactly the same as the list of what affects real life pitchers. Simulation only goes so far; I can play the entire game simply thinking "I will do X because X is the best thing to do in real life baseball," but if Y variable was not even incorporated in the game - or Z was, perhaps, to balance things out - then that changes my whole line of thinking, does it not?

I understand why some things should be kept a secret, but information that affects my ability to play the game as it was intended, or contributes to my success or failure in a particular game mode, I think, should be made available to the public.

[phenom1990]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

I still haven't figured out how to stop a groundball by sliding with my fielder. CPU does it all the time though.

In my experience, I have found that I need to hit the R2 button a split second sooner than I think to make the play on the grounder.

The thing I didn't know until Pared said it was that you can call timeout in the batter box by hitting down on the D-PAD. It is either down on the d-pad or left.

[ryan36]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Knight, you're right about the thread title... but let's take this to ONE example.

Potentials. I don't even CARE what might change them... just knowing that they might change would've changed the way I play. I cut "D" potential guys batting .500 in AA , because they were "D" potential guys.

Knowing this little tidbit changes this way I play... progression doesn't seem to be "hard coded" like other titles, but just knowing there is a "maybe the scouts were wrong, and the guy is better" makes me evaluate the performance rather than the ratings. Which is AWESOME...if I knew about it.

I don't want their trade secrets , as I tend to think you're right- you know too much, and it probably ruins a lot for you... but I feel like just a little more...would make the game A++++++.

[ryan36]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Also, I'd like to add, there is no way that anyone really wants the game to be less deep... it was a poor way to phrase what I'm getting at.

[Knight165]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Knight, you're right about the thread title... but let's take this to ONE example.

Potentials. I don't even CARE what might change them... just knowing that they might change would've changed the way I play. I cut "D" potential guys batting .500 in AA , because they were "D" potential guys.

Knowing this little tidbit changes this way I play... progression doesn't seem to be "hard coded" like other titles, but just knowing there is a "maybe the scouts were wrong, and the guy is better" makes me evaluate the performance rather than the ratings. Which is AWESOME...if I knew about it.

I don't want their trade secrets , as I tend to think you're right- you know too much, and it probably ruins a lot for you... but I feel like just a little more...would make the game A++++++.

Yeah...I agree.
I was saying that putting that in and the new pickoffs etc would go a long way.
Perhaps that thread that Ramone started...the "did you know?" thread is leading to them updating the manual.
Heck...maybe if we added some posts in that thread with THINGS YOU'D LIKE TO KNOW....they would add them.

Training is the big one for me. I've spoken to Kolbe about it...about not only changing it...but also adding descriptions and suggestions about the training areas.

M.K.
Knight165

[thaSLAB]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

I don't think it is too deep... in the sense that it is as deep as baseball itself. However, when compared to other games, it is definitely one of, if not the most deep game out there.

I think the manual would be pretty huge if every single intricacy/nuance/etc was included... I do think one thing The Show could absolutely benefit from (that many games have), is a strategy guide. That would answer a lot of the questions that users have. I've even thought about doing a tutorial video (like the basketball games have) for performing certain "moves" when fielding and throwing, due to another thread that talked about improper/slow animations. There is certain way to work the sticks to get the result you are looking for, but it is very hard to explain.

I think the things like potential change are kind of inferred by the devs... and maybe they shouldn't. I found out because I simply thought "whats the purpose of having F potential players if they will never amount to anything?" So I tried an experiment to see if (like in real life) practice and 'hard work' would help their game, and it did. I definitely think something like this would be a good topic for the strategy guide, moreso than the user manual.

[dlk90514]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

Before y'all kill me...

I made a post in the roster thread about potential- and then someone responded potential can change 2 letter grades over the course of a franchise... I had just been cutting the F potential guys (for like 4 years), never realizing they'd be more than F overall... I just figured out how to change user controlled teams mid -franchise...

other than the fact I'm an idiot- I'll stipulate to that... are there things to the game that you feel you'd enjoy more if you knew how they'd work? I don't feel like certain things in the "secret sauce" of progression lose their luster by me knowing them- potential changing is an awesome feature...but how was I gonna know?

Are there things you wish were explained better, or were more simplified?

how do you change your user controlled team mid-franchise?

[TMJOHNS18]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

In my experience, I have found that I need to hit the R2 button a split second sooner than I think to make the play on the grounder.

The thing I didn't know until Pared said it was that you can call timeout in the batter box by hitting down on the D-PAD. It is either down on the d-pad or left.

It's down on the D-pad. I never knew that till I accidentally hit it and I was like huh? for a second then I realized I ask for time. Same thing with pitching, I think L2 lets you step off the mound if you don't like the pitch and you can take a second to reconsider.

[Pared]

Re: Is The Show too deep? Are there things you feel like you don't know?

It's only too deep if you think it's too deep. I think people dig and dig into the game and don't just play it as a game.

Phenomenal post. Really. I agree whole-heartedly.

I want to know exactly what causes my pitcher to lose or gain confidence, because the fact is that it will not be exactly the same as the list of what affects real life pitchers.

What affects real life pitchers?