Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap?

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  • WAZ
    Rookie
    • Nov 2002
    • 302
    #76
    Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

    Originally posted by bayman
    Waz you should be a politician. In one breath you say they shouldn't scrap the engine and then all of your suggestions are things that would require scrapping/overhauling the whole engine. Do you really not see this?
    Yeah, you're right. All of these would require scrapping the whole engine.

    - New interface/menu layout = new gameplay engine.

    - Adding new controls/buttons = new gameplay engine (as you know, they've never added new control schemes or features to the current engine).

    - Editing the fielding animations and timing for catches = new gameplay engine (if I'm not mistaken, they've already made RTTS fielding more manual in the current engine).

    - Something as simple as a new XMB/title screen song clip = new gameplay engine. Probably shouldn't expect that till the PS4, eh?

    Come on dude. How about we get back to the thread instead of picking out suggestions you don't like. This isn't about me or my specific suggestions; I was only putting those out there as a response to Pared (re: things that we might expect to make the game feel fresh without rebuilding the entire game from scratch). That was the only point, and I'm sorry you missed it. Moving on...
    "60% of the time, it works every time."

      Comment

      • WAZ
        Rookie
        • Nov 2002
        • 302
        #77
        Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

        Originally posted by Pared
        Does the sport of baseball feel they need to reinvent themselves every single year? Why should a successful game franchise do the same "just to feel fresh?"
        I don't think they do. They have an amazing baseball engine here, so it's ridiculous and unrealistic to scrap it "just because". I say keep building on it.

        When it comes to commercial and critical response, though, there's definitely this sense of needing to convince last year's customers to pay another $60 this year (and reviewers to give it 8's and 9's instead of 6's or 7's). I think reinventing is unnecessary, but you still need to do enough to attract sales -- and keep the developers employed the next year.

        Plus, most people want to feel like their hard-earned $60 bought them a worthwhile upgrade. I still buy it every year, but there's always room to improve the series, even if it's just continuing to add to and refine what's already a great engine. I don't envy sports game developers who have to keep doing this every year.
        "60% of the time, it works every time."

          Comment

          • Russell_SCEA
            SCEA Community Manager
            • May 2005
            • 4161
            #78
            Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

            I don't think they should scrap the engine, but there are things that would improve the "feel" of the game significantly, IMO... things that would make it feel shiny and new, and less like last year's game.

            I feel like I've personally been harping on the same couple issues for about 4-5 years now... but the main one is the lack of precise/manual fielding.

            The game has looked, sounded, and played largely the same since 2007. Of course that's to be expected using the same engine -- and don't get me wrong, the gameplay is still the best out there. But every year I feel like the ball gets put into play, I nonchalantly move my player within 5 feet of a giant spinning ball graphic, and he automatically makes the catch. There's really no skill required or any sort of interesting involvement with fielding. And the giant spinning ball just looks old and out of place now, as it's been basically the same since about MLB 06 on PS2.

            I was really hoping that after 5 years, this would be the year we got true manual fielding -- to actually get to CONTROL your player all the way until the catch. Move him to a small (shrinking?) spot where the ball will land and actually have to pay some attention and not just have the CPU automatically control your player for half the sequence. Other games, from High Heat to MLB 2K11, have had much "tighter" fielding (I even remember editing High Heat's famous text file to have a smaller catch region), but The Show still feels very similar in the field to how it did 5 years ago... the '12 demo TBD.

            Hell, maybe even an optional "Catch" button, like having to time pressing/releasing R1 when the ball reaches your glove, where the window of opportunity is bigger or smaller depending on the fielder's ratings. Just something to make fielding more involved, lively, interesting, and under the player's manual control. Something to make it FEEL new and different, even if it's the same solid engine underneath.

            Well the giant spinning ball has new art this year so that's changed.

            This franchise will never have full control over your fielders for two reasons. One we tired it last year and while it was fun in the outfield it made fielding in the infield extremely difficult and not fun. No one on the entire team or during CD had the reflex's to field hot shots to 1st, 2nd, or 3rd base. Doing so also completely negated the reaction fielding attribute which eliminated guys having different jumps on balls hit in play. All video game development is done to the lowest common denominator. So if it breaks infield fielding it has to go.

            You can't have smooth animations and complete control. In this franchise you can't have both and having complete control over your fielders eliminates tens of thousands of transition animations in the database. It also makes the game ugly. So we do the best to be in the middle give you as much control as possible while still having the game look like a baseball game and not a tech demo.

            This year you have more control over your fielders than last year, making it the third straight year we have improved the game in that area. The catch rings that lock you into catch animations based on player attributes and the angle you take to the ball has been shrunk again. Thus opening up more dive and slide catching opportunities and giving the user more control.

            A catch button well we added that to this year for the move and tried it out for the regular game. Didn't work so well again infield play was all but impossible if you had to catch the ball then throw it. There wasn't enough time for a human to do both and keep the game balanced. So it was removed.

            We now have a dynamic catch system where every catch can not only be dropped but bobbled and player ratings, the catch animation, and the user's input all plays a factor in the new catch system.

            There are also to other major additions that effects fielding, baserunning, and on base collisions.

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(PS3 & Vita) – Players will now know where they and other players are on the field and understand when to avoid other players and how to react when other players are near.Although this sounds like a relatively simple concept, but it’s very important and makes the game experience feel more true to life.

            ¨ New Tag Animation System (PS3 & PS Vita) – Players can now branch out of any tag throw animation and branch out of a tag animation to avoid it. There are also more animations and ways to tag runners out at the plate. This new system allows for more results (dropping the ball, new swipes, etc.) and the addition of new standing and run down tags, which creates a more dynamic and organic player integration on the base paths and at the plate.

            Those two additions along with the new ball physics, the over 300 new fielding and baserunning animations,the ability to drop or bobble any catch, jump catch balls off the wall, new take out slides, and the re-tooled fielding ratings (default speed and reaction time is now lower across the board). Has created the most organic play results this franchise has ever seen.


            So to say that the fielding part of the game has remained the same is well just completely non true.

              Comment

              • AUTiger1
                MVP
                • Oct 2008
                • 2413
                #79
                Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                Originally posted by Russell_SCEA
                Well the giant spinning ball has new art this year so that's changed.

                This franchise will never have full control over your fielders for two reasons. One we tired it last year and while it was fun in the outfield it made fielding in the infield extremely difficult and not fun. No one on the entire team or during CD had the reflex's to field hot shots to 1st, 2nd, or 3rd base. Doing so also completely negated the reaction fielding attribute which eliminated guys having different jumps on balls hit in play. All video game development is done to the lowest common denominator. So if it breaks infield fielding it has to go.

                You can't have smooth animations and complete control. In this franchise you can't have both and having complete control over your fielders eliminates tens of thousands of transition animations in the database. It also makes the game ugly. So we do the best to be in the middle give you as much control as possible while still having the game look like a baseball game and not a tech demo.

                This year you have more control over your fielders than last year, making it the third straight year we have improved the game in that area. The catch rings that lock you into catch animations based on player attributes and the angle you take to the ball has been shrunk again. Thus opening up more dive and slide catching opportunities and giving the user more control.

                A catch button well we added that to this year for the move and tried it out for the regular game. Didn't work so well again infield play was all but impossible if you had to catch the ball then throw it. There wasn't enough time for a human to do both and keep the game balanced. So it was removed.

                We now have a dynamic catch system where every catch can not only be dropped but bobbled and player ratings, the catch animation, and the user's input all plays a factor in the new catch system.

                There are also to other major additions that effects fielding, baserunning, and on base collisions.

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(PS3 & Vita) – Players will now know where they and other players are on the field and understand when to avoid other players and how to react when other players are near.Although this sounds like a relatively simple concept, but it’s very important and makes the game experience feel more true to life.

                ¨ New Tag Animation System (PS3 & PS Vita) – Players can now branch out of any tag throw animation and branch out of a tag animation to avoid it. There are also more animations and ways to tag runners out at the plate. This new system allows for more results (dropping the ball, new swipes, etc.) and the addition of new standing and run down tags, which creates a more dynamic and organic player integration on the base paths and at the plate.

                Those two additions along with the new ball physics, the over 300 new fielding and baserunning animations,the ability to drop or bobble any catch, jump catch balls off the wall, new take out slides, and the re-tooled fielding ratings (default speed and reaction time is now lower across the board). Has created the most organic play results this franchise has ever seen.


                So to say that the fielding part of the game has remained the same is well just completely non true.
                Thanks Russell! Sounds like you and the rest of the team have done an awesome job on the fielding this year! Thanks!

                I just want to ask a question. I used to have MVP NCAA Baseball 06 and one of favorite things about the fielding on that game was using the right analog stick for throwing and so you had to be very point pin in the direction you wanted to throw the ball and if you missed by just a little bit it resulted in a bad throw for an error. Any chance we could ever see an analog throwing system while fielding in the future? I love the fact that in the past couple of years you guys have put in analog pitching and hitting and have improved the analog hitting this year. Again thanks for all the hard work!
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                  Comment

                  • Heroesandvillains
                    MVP
                    • May 2009
                    • 5974
                    #80
                    Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                    Originally posted by AUTiger1
                    Thanks Russell! Sounds like you and the rest of the team have done an awesome job on the fielding this year! Thanks!

                    I just want to ask a question. I used to have MVP NCAA Baseball 06 and one of favorite things about the fielding on that game was using the right analog stick for throwing and so you had to be very point pin in the direction you wanted to throw the ball and if you missed by just a little bit it resulted in a bad throw for an error. Any chance we could ever see an analog throwing system while fielding in the future? I love the fact that in the past couple of years you guys have put in analog pitching and hitting and have improved the analog hitting this year. Again thanks for all the hard work!
                    If I'm reading your question correctly, the throwing system you described above was introduced into The Show series last year. It's called "Analog Throwing."

                    In short, a pull to the right indicates a throw to first base (from the typical fielding view...mirror opposite in RTTS), pulling to the left is a throw to third base, etc.

                    The amount of time you hold the right stick determines throw strength, as indicated through a meter that pops up above your fielder.

                    An incorrect or untrue move on the right stick increases the percentage of an offline throw. The same ("same" as in: poor result) goes for allowing the throw meter to max out in the red (over throw) or not allowing it to fill up enough (under throw).
                    Last edited by Heroesandvillains; 02-23-2012, 10:15 PM.

                      Comment

                      • AUTiger1
                        MVP
                        • Oct 2008
                        • 2413
                        #81
                        Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                        Originally posted by heroesandvillians
                        If I'm reading your question correctly, the throwing system you described above was introduced into The Show series last year. It's called "Analog Throwing."

                        In short, a pull to the right indicates a throw to first base (from the typical fielding view...mirror opposite in RTTS), pulling to the left is a throw to third base, etc.

                        The amount of time you hold the right stick determines throw strength, as indicated through a meter that pops up above your fielder.

                        An incorrect or untrue move on the right stick increases the percentage of an offline throw. The same goes for allowing the throw meter to max out in the red.
                        I thought that was only in RTTS mode?
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                          Comment

                          • Heroesandvillains
                            MVP
                            • May 2009
                            • 5974
                            #82
                            Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                            Originally posted by AUTiger1
                            I thought that was only in RTTS mode?
                            Analog Throwing is available in all modes.

                              Comment

                              • AUTiger1
                                MVP
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 2413
                                #83
                                Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                Originally posted by heroesandvillians
                                Analog Throwing is available in all modes.
                                Well then I feel like a total idiot. So ignore my question Russell.
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                                  Comment

                                  • Heroesandvillains
                                    MVP
                                    • May 2009
                                    • 5974
                                    #84
                                    Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                    Originally posted by AUTiger1
                                    Well then I feel like a total idiot. So ignore my question Russell.
                                    Any question is a good question. Though, this time of year, responses can be a bit heated.

                                    I had to chuckle when I read your MVP description/request. You described the exact throw system already in the game! (Note: I DO NOT remember MVP 05's throwing system, so I cannot comment whether it was similar or not. But YOUR description of it was! LOL!)

                                      Comment

                                      • AUTiger1
                                        MVP
                                        • Oct 2008
                                        • 2413
                                        #85
                                        Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                        Originally posted by heroesandvillians
                                        Any question is a good question. Though, this time of year, responses can be a bit heated.

                                        I had to chuckle when I read your MVP description/request. You described the exact throw system already in the game! (Note: I DO NOT remember MVP 05's throwing system, so I cannot comment whether it was similar or not. But YOUR description of it was! LOL!)
                                        If I remember right MVP 05 didn't have it. It wasn't till 06 when it was the college baseball game.
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                                          Comment

                                          • HustlinOwl
                                            All Star
                                            • Mar 2004
                                            • 9713
                                            #86
                                            Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                            Originally posted by AUTiger1
                                            If I remember right MVP 05 didn't have it. It wasn't till 06 when it was the college baseball game.
                                            College Baseball had Analog not MVP 05

                                              Comment

                                              • AUTiger1
                                                MVP
                                                • Oct 2008
                                                • 2413
                                                #87
                                                Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                                Originally posted by HustlinOwl
                                                College Baseball had Analog not MVP 05
                                                Thank you for your confirmation. I thought I was remembering correctly but wasn't 110% sure.
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                                                  Comment

                                                  • jmik58
                                                    Staff Writer
                                                    • Jan 2008
                                                    • 2401
                                                    #88
                                                    Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                                    Originally posted by Russell_SCEA
                                                    Well the giant spinning ball has new art this year so that's changed.

                                                    This franchise will never have full control over your fielders for two reasons. One we tired it last year and while it was fun in the outfield it made fielding in the infield extremely difficult and not fun. No one on the entire team or during CD had the reflex's to field hot shots to 1st, 2nd, or 3rd base. Doing so also completely negated the reaction fielding attribute which eliminated guys having different jumps on balls hit in play. All video game development is done to the lowest common denominator. So if it breaks infield fielding it has to go.

                                                    You can't have smooth animations and complete control. In this franchise you can't have both and having complete control over your fielders eliminates tens of thousands of transition animations in the database. It also makes the game ugly. So we do the best to be in the middle give you as much control as possible while still having the game look like a baseball game and not a tech demo.

                                                    This year you have more control over your fielders than last year, making it the third straight year we have improved the game in that area. The catch rings that lock you into catch animations based on player attributes and the angle you take to the ball has been shrunk again. Thus opening up more dive and slide catching opportunities and giving the user more control.

                                                    A catch button well we added that to this year for the move and tried it out for the regular game. Didn't work so well again infield play was all but impossible if you had to catch the ball then throw it. There wasn't enough time for a human to do both and keep the game balanced. So it was removed.

                                                    We now have a dynamic catch system where every catch can not only be dropped but bobbled and player ratings, the catch animation, and the user's input all plays a factor in the new catch system.

                                                    There are also to other major additions that effects fielding, baserunning, and on base collisions.

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(PS3 & Vita) – Players will now know where they and other players are on the field and understand when to avoid other players and how to react when other players are near.Although this sounds like a relatively simple concept, but it’s very important and makes the game experience feel more true to life.

                                                    ¨ New Tag Animation System (PS3 & PS Vita) – Players can now branch out of any tag throw animation and branch out of a tag animation to avoid it. There are also more animations and ways to tag runners out at the plate. This new system allows for more results (dropping the ball, new swipes, etc.) and the addition of new standing and run down tags, which creates a more dynamic and organic player integration on the base paths and at the plate.

                                                    Those two additions along with the new ball physics, the over 300 new fielding and baserunning animations,the ability to drop or bobble any catch, jump catch balls off the wall, new take out slides, and the re-tooled fielding ratings (default speed and reaction time is now lower across the board). Has created the most organic play results this franchise has ever seen.


                                                    So to say that the fielding part of the game has remained the same is well just completely non true.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ryan36
                                                        7 dirty words...
                                                        • Feb 2003
                                                        • 10139
                                                        #89
                                                        Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                                        Originally posted by WAZ

                                                        - Editing the fielding animations and timing for catches = new gameplay engine (if I'm not mistaken, they've already made RTTS fielding more manual in the current engine).
                                                        ^ well yes, this would be a new fielding engine. you basically just said "re-do the way the game does fielding"

                                                        Originally posted by WAZ
                                                        Plus, most people want to feel like their hard-earned $60 bought them a worthwhile upgrade.
                                                        It's always a worthwhile upgrade for this game. I just started the thread as kind of a measurement of the hype.

                                                        Hell, I sat down to read 4 hours ago , put in the Show 11' and missed a dinner appointment. No joke.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • DetroitStyle
                                                            Meow
                                                            • May 2011
                                                            • 1041
                                                            #90
                                                            Re: Conjecture: From what we've seen, will MLB 12 miss an opportunity for a huge leap

                                                            Originally posted by Pared
                                                            No, I get you. Put it this way - how does a 9 year old vet. get pumped for a new season? It's still baseball - there is no fresh coat of paint or new set of tires - just baseball. Same comparison here.

                                                            You have the chance to say what you think here - what would you like to see where you don't feel that way? I think no matter the game, once you have a good base, should you scrap it just so it feels fresh or do you want it keep trying to portray the sport as accurately as possible?

                                                            Basically, just give me your thoughts. It's easy to say it looks the same... but I'm interested in expectations that can formulate into tangible evidence. Outside of commentary/audio... what do you expect to see that would lead you to not feel as you do?
                                                            For me I would need a new overhaul to franchise mode. Something fun, engaging, and that works right. I think the mode could be better. With that, I would like to see deep stat tracking, deep player cards showing previous years stats, teams, awards (for each player), etc. As well a beefed up presentation (not necessarily commentary) that has franchise specific overlays (they said they were adding some this year, so we'll see how that goes) and more real broadcast presentation much like we've seen with NCAA, NBA 2K, and Madden in recent years.

                                                            All that combined would get me pumped to experience the game and not just get me excited for baseball. Hopefully that will be a focus next year, as the rumblings around the forums have hinted to a franchise focus/upgrade for next year.

                                                            Honestly they've hit all the right spots already. The graphics and face scans are second to none on consoles, the animations are consistently being improved and added on to, the gameplay is reaching it's apex of perfection (now with the edition of real time physics) so I feel all that's left is franchise which hasn't been touched in years.
                                                            Last edited by DetroitStyle; 02-24-2012, 12:35 AM.

                                                              Comment

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