CPU Plate Discipline AI

[jmik58]

I'm curious as to what others are experiencing from the CPU in regard to the plate discipline of CPU batters.

I feel like there are only one or two batters per lineup that I can get to swing at anything out of the zone. I'm pretty sure the frequency of pitches swung at that are out of the zone - in real life - is much higher than what I'm experiencing.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't find a slider to adjust something like this. I can change the timing so that there are more swing-and-miss instances, but that has little to do with the choice to swing or not.

I'm not saying the CPU batters need to close their eyes and hack, but it's crazy how often they take a pitch that is 1" outside of the zone when they have two strikes on them. Sometimes the pitch is on the black and could go either way and they still take it with two strikes.

Anyways, this has been my experience and I'm hesitant to do much with any CPU hitting sliders for sake of skewing the overall results. Are any of you seeing similar issues? And if so, what have you found that helps?

[nomo17k]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

(I haven't been able to actually play games much with 12 yet, just my observations from 11 and CPU vs. CPU games for 12.)

I also feel CPU is a bit too well disciplined. That has definitely improved since 10 (my first the Show), but it might still be the case.

One measure of how CPU chases pitches is to look at the number of "chased" pitches in the pitcher/batter analysis at the end of the game. I have been doing this for the purpose of making a CPU vs. CPU slider set.

What I think is that CPU indeed does not chase enough according to the stats. At fangraphs.com, "O-Swing%" indicate how often a batter swings at pitches out of the strike zone. The MLB average is like 29%, meaning an average hitter would swing at 29% of all the pitches thrown outsize the strike zone.

If I'm computing this properly from the numbers I have gotten from the pitcher/batter analysis, in the game CPU's O-Swing % is about 23%. That's about a 6% difference, which doesn't look huge but it actually is quite significant in this kind of context.

[rob1217]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

The Show has always had CPU batters with great plate discipline, however it's not impossible to get multiple strikeouts. You just have to spot most of your pitches on the corners or throw off the CPU's timing. Examples would be if you've thrown a fastball away...back door slider, 2 seamer, or changeup away and have the AI with two strikes then that high inside fastball on the corner of the zone will have tremendous success. Or a few fastballs followed by a change would work nicely as well. It's about mixing it up...I'm sure you probably already know this but after some repetitions you find your own repertoire that fits best. Best of luck...

[jmik58]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

(I haven't been able to actually play games much with 12 yet, just my observations from 11 and CPU vs. CPU games for 12.)

I also feel CPU is a bit too well disciplined. That has definitely improved since 10 (my first the Show), but it might still be the case.

One measure of how CPU chases pitches is to look at the number of "chased" pitches in the pitcher/batter analysis at the end of the game. I have been doing this for the purpose of making a CPU vs. CPU slider set.

What I think is that CPU indeed does not chase enough according to the stats. At fangraphs.com, "O-Swing%" indicate how often a batter swings at pitches out of the strike zone. The MLB average is like 29%, meaning an average hitter would swing at 29% of all the pitches thrown outsize the strike zone.

If I'm computing this properly from the numbers I have gotten from the pitcher/batter analysis, in the game CPU's O-Swing % is about 23%. That's about a 6% difference, which doesn't look huge but it actually is quite significant in this kind of context.

Great supporting information. When you're talking a figure as 20-something percent... a 6% difference is huge.

Am I right in saying there isn't a slider to adjust this? Very frustrating.

The Show has always had CPU batters with great plate discipline, however it's not impossible to get multiple strikeouts. You just have to spot most of your pitches on the corners or throw off the CPU's timing. Examples would be if you've thrown a fastball away...back door slider, 2 seamer, or changeup away and have the AI with two strikes then that high inside fastball on the corner of the zone will have tremendous success. Or a few fastballs followed by a change would work nicely as well. It's about mixing it up...I'm sure you probably already know this but after some repetitions you find your own repertoire that fits best. Best of luck...

I appreciate your points and you are correct that it's important to use strategy and mix it up. However, my main concern isn't necessarily the strikeouts but just the fact that the CPU batters seem to know if the pitch is a ball or strike before it even leaves my hand. I'm not throwing out the "psychic" term, but they definitely don't chase enough or even swing and hit with poor contact enough -- on pitches out of the zone (whether a little or a lot outside the zone).

[BatsareBugs]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

You need to know what kind of pitching style works best for your pitcher. Along with location and pitch selection, you'll need to mix it up, leave pitches in the zone on 0-2 sometimes instead of trying to always nibble at the corners once you got them down 0-2 (or better yet trying to get them to chase, you can become predictable when as soon as you get two strikes you always try to get them to chase). Also, don't always attack the strike zone. Get yourself into hitter's counts once in a while because it makes you less predictable.

Don't go for the strike-out, let the strike-outs happen.

[jmik58]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

You need to know what kind of pitching style works best for your pitcher. Along with location and pitch selection, you'll need to mix it up, leave pitches in the zone on 0-2 sometimes instead of trying to always nibble at the corners once you got them down 0-2 (or better yet trying to get them to chase, you can become predictable when as soon as you get two strikes you always try to get them to chase). Also, don't always attack the strike zone. Get yourself into hitter's counts once in a while because it makes you less predictable.

Don't go for the strike-out, let the strike-outs happen.

Again, I understand what you're saying ... but the point is that the CPU's plate discipline is way too good. No one is asking the CPU to swing at everything out of the zone, but the MLB average is around 29% of all pitches out of the zone are swung at. That means that, generally speaking, for every two batters there should be at least one pitch out of the zone that is swung at - and probably more. That's just the average.

This doesn't mean that pitching is too hard or I'm getting frustrating results. It's a minor inconvenience and would be great if it could be corrected or a slider to adjust it. If not, I'll live with it; but the numbers show the results should be different.

[nomo17k]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

Great supporting information. When you're talking a figure as 20-something percent... a 6% difference is huge.

Am I right in saying there isn't a slider to adjust this? Very frustrating.

I don't think there's any slider that can adjust it without causing everything else to go out of whack... Possibly Contact but that has too much unwanted side effects.

I actually think there's a possibility that the devs have computed this part incorrectly... If you try to compute O-Swing % in certain way (which I think is a mistake), you get a number close to 30% in game, which is right around the MLB average.

I bring this up only because just about everything else comes within +/- 1 or 2%. The number of chase is really is only one that I see a significant deviation, so I suspect there might be something to it...

I get carried away since my hobby is to create a strikeout pitcher who gets a lot of Ks with pitches out of the strike zone! I find it a tiny bit hard to do this in game, especially with off-speed stuff.

[MattP598]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

It could of been done purposely to up user walks. Most players don't walk enough men to begin with.

[HighCmpPct]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

It could of been done purposely to up user walks. Most players don't walk enough men to begin with.

Thats kind of interesting. But my experience this year has been that its more important than ever to setup the hitter, if you haven't setup that pitch out of the zone he's not swinging. It also has to do with game situation, if its early in the game no one on ect. they're alot less likely to chase. However later in the maybe down a few, or been having a bad day at the plate they're more likely to swing. Also this year i've seen alot more variety in that batters that really chase alot like Jack Cust for example will chase alot more out of the zone.

Best I can tell you and don't get mad or anything cause i'm not saying anyones stupid or doesn't know anything. But really study the art of pitching, I had a full ride to FSU as a starter played about half a season and suffered my third acl tear, but anyway I had a pitching coach that used to tell me. "Spend as much time in film and study as you can, cause they say squaring up a round ball with a round bat is the hardest thing in sports, but its even harder to keep it from happening."

[jmik58]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

Thats kind of interesting. But my experience this year has been that its more important than ever to setup the hitter, if you haven't setup that pitch out of the zone he's not swinging. It also has to do with game situation, if its early in the game no one on ect. they're alot less likely to chase. However later in the maybe down a few, or been having a bad day at the plate they're more likely to swing. Also this year i've seen alot more variety in that batters that really chase alot like Jack Cust for example will chase alot more out of the zone.

Best I can tell you and don't get mad or anything cause i'm not saying anyones stupid or doesn't know anything. But really study the art of pitching, I had a full ride to FSU as a starter played about half a season and suffered my third acl tear, but anyway I had a pitching coach that used to tell me. "Spend as much time in film and study as you can, cause they say squaring up a round ball with a round bat is the hardest thing in sports, but its even harder to keep it from happening."

I also have years of experience pitching and more recently as a high school coach who works with pitchers as well. I'm no genius, but my knowledge of the game and the MLB statistics that support guys chasing is what makes this slightly frustrating.

Keep in mind, chasing a ball "out of the zone" doesn't mean it's waaay out of the zone and it doesn't mean that the ball is missed.

I think the CPU has amazing discipline in counts when they should be swinging defensively to foul off anything close, and I don't see that. I'll throw an 0-2 or 1-2 pitch right on the black (it could go either way) and the CPU will take it 75% of the time and it's a ball when they take it - almost as if they know before the pitcher releases the pitch.

[HighCmpPct]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

Hey jmik, idk if you work with the pitchers on your team or not. But I would really recommend throwing that line from my old pitching coach, it really really helped me and alot of my teammates out. Especially in high school.

[jmik58]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

Hey jmik, idk if you work with the pitchers on your team or not. But I would really recommend throwing that line from my old pitching coach, it really really helped me and alot of my teammates out. Especially in high school.

Ya I work with the pitchers, but unfortunately we don't have film at the high school level...at least not in the states I've been in. I like the last part of the quote though; it speaks to how hitting a baseball is extremely difficult, but when you have guys that are good at it...it's even tougher to stop them.

[nemesis04]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

On HOF I have found they tend to have less discipline and were pretty aggressive early on in the at bat. The reason it stood out so much was because my starter was not being worked hard enough and could easily go late in the game.

[idrisguitar]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

i totally agree with this, it really bothers me actually.

cant be a 100% great simulation if you cant threaten with those perfect unhittable, tempting pitches.

still best sports simulation out there of course. but this seems like such a simple problem to sort out. suprised if there isn't at least an internal attribute they could change in an instant to make this better.

[bayman]

Re: CPU Plate Discipline AI

i totally agree with this, it really bothers me actually.

cant be a 100% great simulation if you cant threaten with those perfect unhittable, tempting pitches.

still best sports simulation out there of course. but this seems like such a simple problem to sort out. suprised if there isn't at least an internal attribute they could change in an instant to make this better.

You think programming CPU AI is "simple"?