Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

[Pared]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Worst case, I'd like to just see them allow the users to adjust CPU lineups, without having to use 30 team control.

This is on the discussion table.

Some people don't want to mess with the 30 team Bs...

Completely understandable. In a genre full of workarounds and allowances, however, it's difficult to expect a game to please everyone. Hence, the reason why this game has so many options. If this bothers you enough, you do have an option to take control and solve it as opposed to other things in the game.

Of course, the ideal solution would be the AI didn't make decisions like this at times. I think we can all agree to that.

[Knight165]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Everyone in here is making good points.

Individual manager tendencies would go a good way into helping guys shape how they "think" lineups should be.

It's apparent that there are some misconceptions on how lineups ARE really set IRL sometimes.

I will say this...even w/o 30 team control(which some guys STILL blow out of proportion on the "difficulty" of doing. It's amazing and I have to say....if you think it's "hard"....I have my doubts that you've tried it)....if you are going to be able to set lineups and have them stick...you are going to have to eventually make decisions for the CPU and make the moves for them. There is no way around it. It is essentially....30 team control with everything to AUTO and lineups to MANUAL.
The only difference is the drafts.(it's the only thing I'll give you guys on 30 team control being more "difficult")
You can take 30 team control into a franchise and NEVER have to make a move for a CPU controlled team. How hard is that?

M.K.
Knight165

[spit_bubble]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

I've played only 10 games now and I've already seen Carlos Beltran and Jayson Werth batting leadoff...

Werth actually hit leadoff last year a handful of times.

As you can see he also hit 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th... Even 9th.

Beltran even hit leadoff once last year.

And Ichiro has been hitting third this spring. Crazy world we live in.

[Gleebo]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Two things have stuck out in my CHW season so far.
1. When i played the opening series vs the Rangers, Josh Hamilton batted 8th vs me.
2. In my last game of a 3 game seris vs the Tigers they had all kinds of guys playing out of position. Inge was catching, Fielder was playing RF (?), and their back up catcher was playing 2B.

In situation number 1, was your SP a Lefty that eats up LHB, Hamilton was very pedestrian vs. LHP last season...On my Strat-O-Matic team I bat Hamilton vs. LH in the bottom of the order...usually 7th.

Brandon Inge has played catcher in the MLB, in fact he is currently the Tigers emergency catcher and has been for a while...Fielder should not be in OF, M.Cabrera out of the two of them should be in LF if anything.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

And then you'll have guys on the bench that start over longtime starters.

You have no idea how difficult this is to do. I'm sure if they followed your "off the top of the head" approach you would see all the errors in the "logic" when it is actually executed.

Again, it's not as simple as you think. You see names and that's all you really measure, not hard numbers.

Lineup logic is separate from the logic that dictates who starts. I'm not saying go throughout the whole team and apply that logic. After the game decides the starting 9, then you go through the lineup logic to set the lineup.

And not every team sets up a lineup like this. See Seattle with Ichiro batting 3rd this year. That completely goes against your lineup at #1. There is no one-size-fits-all formula.

I said there is no way to perfectly recreate a every team's real lineup as I said certain managers go against the grain. But at least give me lineup logic that makes sense, no Todd Helton batting 8th.

I'm with you. Now, I don't think its easy to get every lineup perfect, but it really shouldn't be hard to eliminate the more egregious anomalies that we've been seeing over the years. The main thing is, there hasn't been any measurable progress. I really don't think the lineup logic is any better now than it was 5 years ago.

Thank you, this is the 9TH GAME OF THE SERIES!!! I think the logic should be good enough by now to not have completely unrealistic lineups.

um i know u touched on this within this paragraph but ian kinsler bats leadoff and smacked 31 bombs...some coaches want power at the top for early leads

I said there isn't a way to perfectly recreate every team's lineup using a set lineup logic.

Everyone in here is making good points.

Individual manager tendencies would go a good way into helping guys shape how they "think" lineups should be.

It's apparent that there are some misconceptions on how lineups ARE really set IRL sometimes.

I will say this...even w/o 30 team control(which some guys STILL blow out of proportion on the "difficulty" of doing. It's amazing and I have to say....if you think it's "hard"....I have my doubts that you've tried it)....if you are going to be able to set lineups and have them stick...you are going to have to eventually make decisions for the CPU and make the moves for them. There is no way around it. It is essentially....30 team control with everything to AUTO and lineups to MANUAL.
The only difference is the drafts.(it's the only thing I'll give you guys on 30 team control being more "difficult")
You can take 30 team control into a franchise and NEVER have to make a move for a CPU controlled team. How hard is that?

M.K.
Knight165

I shouldn't have to do 30 team control just for the CPU to make sensible lineups. 30 team control SHOULD be there for people that want every team's lineup to perfectly mirror real life. I'm not asking for perfect recreation of each team's lineup. I'm asking for the lineup logic to at least makes sense. Todd Helton hitting 8th makes no sense. He should have been slotted into the #2 or #3 spot well before the 8th spot.

[Gagnon39]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Everyone in here is making good points.

Individual manager tendencies would go a good way into helping guys shape how they "think" lineups should be.

It's apparent that there are some misconceptions on how lineups ARE really set IRL sometimes.

I will say this...even w/o 30 team control(which some guys STILL blow out of proportion on the "difficulty" of doing. It's amazing and I have to say....if you think it's "hard"....I have my doubts that you've tried it)....if you are going to be able to set lineups and have them stick...you are going to have to eventually make decisions for the CPU and make the moves for them. There is no way around it. It is essentially....30 team control with everything to AUTO and lineups to MANUAL.
The only difference is the drafts.(it's the only thing I'll give you guys on 30 team control being more "difficult")
You can take 30 team control into a franchise and NEVER have to make a move for a CPU controlled team. How hard is that?

M.K.
Knight165

What about the draft? Can you draft for your team but not the others?

[spit_bubble]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Whoops, didn't see you mention Helton hitting 8th. It's what I get for skimming over a post rather than reading it.

Still, at some point you have to suspend your disbelief and accept that you're entering into an alternate reality when you start a franchise mode. And maybe in this alternate reality Todd Helton's 38 year old bat has slowed down to the point where his hitting 8th is perfectly justified. Looking at his numbers the last few years it's really not that much of a stretch.

[Knight165]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

What about the draft? Can you draft for your team but not the others?

Are you joking?
or
Selective reading much?

M.K.
Knight165

[Unit303]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

C++ is a very demanding language and it is not near as easy as you seem to think to make these things work. It is pretty obvious they didn't have much time this year.

But, I cannot excuse things like pitchers and batters having ridiculous stats and non-existent pitches anymore. Lineups at this point are also suspect. Things like pitches have no excuse for not being correct. I can and have done my own rosters before and I see what people on here do. If we can use pitch f/x in our free time and do much better then there is simply no excuse for it not to be in this game. They have gotten better sure but getting better as a paid stat guy is ridiculous when we have been beating them at their own game for years. Hell, all they need to do is import some of the rosters we have on here and tweak them.

Again, from a programming standpoint this game has been at a standstill in many areas. If they hadn't redone ball physics I wouldn't even bother this year. I give them the benefit of the doubt and hope next year some of these absolutely ridiculous uniform mistakes, pitches, stances, etc, will all be ironed out. Actually, I hope a patch can fix some things.

If Sony goes non Cell and AMD lol I think 2013 will be the last year on the PS3 or they will need another team to do it because that will massively interfere with their development imo. I don't want to see massive interference in development anymore.

People do remember this is a console with 6 year old tech in it. Only so much can be thrown our of their engine with their time constraints and budget. Not an excuse just a thought.

[Based Doc]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Billy Martin won a game with a random batting order. Just go with it.

And I second the "not as easy as it sounds" point. 99% of the time, the people that say that, have never programmed, or never done more than the easy programming assignment for school. Nothing anywhere near as dynamic as that. Hell, I've programmed some pretty crazy simulations and I wouldn't know how to make a "proper" batting order as there is no such thing. Just because you think someone should bat somewhere (usually by name recognition and ignoring everything else), doesn't mean they actually should.

Yup, I notice a lot of the complaints with this game's logic for trades, free agents (besides the age old 2014/2015/etc. glitch, that is a real one), subbing in pitchers, etc. are actually just complaints with AI in general. We aren't even close to having AI behave like humans do. Hell, we don't even understand why we behave the way we do! We have many theories but almost none of them are very accurate. Unfortunately, people seem to think that we do have this stuff figured out, it's only when you start researching it yourself that you realize we have no idea what the frick we're talking about.

Improvements can be made but another issue is that the more complicated the programming gets, the more likely there will be odd errors or anomalies. I know this from programming fairly simple database analysis that even my professor with a freaking PhD in Computer Science can't figure out right away. Usually he has to fiddle with the code for a few hours before he can find the error. A big problem is that the error might be early in the code but the debugger says it's later on so trying to figure out where the heck the error is can frustrate the hell out of you.

I give major props to SCEA for what they have done so far. It's some of the best programming in a sports game ever. Is it perfect? Hell no. But no game will ever have perfect programming/AI. There are of course things they can improve and I'm sure they are working on even better AI/lineup logic/trade logic, etc. but their philosophy of only releasing it once they've got it right is holding them back. I"m sure they could slap together a new system in a year but it would likely be crap (think Madden...). The slow and gradual improvements and making sure that what is there does work is a much better philosophy.

[nomo17k]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

C++ is a very demanding language and it is not near as easy as you seem to think to make these things work. It is pretty obvious they didn't have much time this year.

But, I cannot excuse things like pitchers and batters having ridiculous stats and non-existent pitches anymore. Lineups at this point are also suspect. Things like pitches have no excuse for not being correct. I can and have done my own rosters before and I see what people on here do. If we can use pitch f/x in our free time and do much better then there is simply no excuse for it not to be in this game. They have gotten better sure but getting better as a paid stat guy is ridiculous when we have been beating them at their own game for years. Hell, all they need to do is import some of the rosters we have on here and tweak them.

Again, from a programming standpoint this game has been at a standstill in many areas. If they hadn't redone ball physics I wouldn't even bother this year. I give them the benefit of the doubt and hope next year some of these absolutely ridiculous uniform mistakes, pitches, stances, etc, will all be ironed out. Actually, I hope a patch can fix some things.

If Sony goes non Cell and AMD lol I think 2013 will be the last year on the PS3 or they will need another team to do it because that will massively interfere with their development imo. I don't want to see massive interference in development anymore.

People do remember this is a console with 6 year old tech in it. Only so much can be thrown our of their engine with their time constraints and budget. Not an excuse just a thought.

Are PS3 games coded in C++? But programming language and hardware have pretty much nothing to do with algorithms, like lineup logic.


One thing in this sort of discussion is that as often said about trading algorithms as well, you think in terms of player ratings (and in-game stats if they are used at all) and *not* the real player names, because the game doesn't develop a man crush on a player named Derek Jeter, for example.

There are many players in the game with very uneven splits (RH vs. LH), the lineup "shake-up" could happen when you have a couple players who hit particularly well in one-side. (Scott Hairston in my Mets franchise was a legit power threat in 11... who would think he should hit in the middle of the line up though??) I'm just bringing this up, and not really defending the lineup logic though.


But does anyone know a baseball game that has a very decent lineup logic by itself?

[CMH]

Names matter more than ratings when it comes to viewing game logic objectively.

It's unrealistic to have a healthy discussion about this because of the above. No matter what, people have a hard time understanding that the game doesn't know names.


Sent from my mobile device.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Still, at some point you have to suspend your disbelief and accept that you're entering into an alternate reality when you start a franchise mode. And maybe in this alternate reality Todd Helton's 38 year old bat has slowed down to the point where his hitting 8th is perfectly justified. Looking at his numbers the last few years it's really not that much of a stretch.

Names matter more than ratings when it comes to viewing game logic objectively.

It's unrealistic to have a healthy discussion about this because of the above. No matter what, people have a hard time understanding that the game doesn't know names.

I'm not looking at names, I'm looking at attributes. It's not that Todd Helton is batting 8th, it's that a player with Todd Helton's attributes is batting 8th. Also, I'm fine with a former star player whose bat has slowed batting 8th IF his attributes have declined to reflect that.

C++ is a very demanding language and it is not near as easy as you seem to think to make these things work. It is pretty obvious they didn't have much time this year.

But, I cannot excuse things like pitchers and batters having ridiculous stats and non-existent pitches anymore. Lineups at this point are also suspect. Things like pitches have no excuse for not being correct. I can and have done my own rosters before and I see what people on here do. If we can use pitch f/x in our free time and do much better then there is simply no excuse for it not to be in this game. They have gotten better sure but getting better as a paid stat guy is ridiculous when we have been beating them at their own game for years. Hell, all they need to do is import some of the rosters we have on here and tweak them.

Again, from a programming standpoint this game has been at a standstill in many areas. If they hadn't redone ball physics I wouldn't even bother this year. I give them the benefit of the doubt and hope next year some of these absolutely ridiculous uniform mistakes, pitches, stances, etc, will all be ironed out. Actually, I hope a patch can fix some things.

If Sony goes non Cell and AMD lol I think 2013 will be the last year on the PS3 or they will need another team to do it because that will massively interfere with their development imo. I don't want to see massive interference in development anymore.

People do remember this is a console with 6 year old tech in it. Only so much can be thrown our of their engine with their time constraints and budget. Not an excuse just a thought.

The programmers already know the language they are coding in very well. It's the programming logic that is problematic, not the programmers' knowledge of C++.

I agree with all the middle paragraphs.

And, 6 year old tech only excuses graphical improvements, there's only so much they can do graphically with the PS3. But stuff like physics, which is all math, current gen consoles have no problem doing math, CPUs are great at doing math. The new physics are great, but they should've been in the game years ago. Lineup logic wouldn't be hampered by aging hardware. Those lines of programming aren't even being executed when the game is actually being played.

[Based Doc]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Whoops, didn't see you mention Helton hitting 8th. It's what I get for skimming over a post rather than reading it.

Still, at some point you have to suspend your disbelief and accept that you're entering into an alternate reality when you start a franchise mode. And maybe in this alternate reality Todd Helton's 38 year old bat has slowed down to the point where his hitting 8th is perfectly justified. Looking at his numbers the last few years it's really not that much of a stretch.

This is one thing I think many people on here need to realize. I've never understood the people who want to have the same injuries as real life, the exact same lineups, etc. The stats and wins/losses are still going to be very different! Same thing with doing the same trades as real life, WHY? I want to make my OWN decisions. I've said this before but my Phillies' team in the Show is MY team not Ruben Amaro Jr's. I also am setting the lineups MY way not the way Ol' Cholly does.

It's a video game, it's a chance to run a team the way you want to, why limit yourself with that? Jimmy Rollins is always our leadoff guy it seems. Who do I bat leadoff? Placido Polanco. He's got high contact and good speed. I also platoon Thome/Howard at 1B since Thome has much better contact/power against lefties (though it's not much better).

I can understand wanting the real lineups for online play but when I play franchise, it's my own baseball world I'm stepping into. It's a "What if I were to take over the Phillies? What would I do?" I also NEVER use 30 team control because I want the CPU to be making decisions. Let's see what trades are made, let's see what injuries happen, etc. I'll watch real life baseball to get the real life narrative, when I play the show I want a different story for that season. Maybe I'll sweep the playoffs while the real life phillies get knocked out in the NLDS again.

[econoodle]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Are PS3 games coded in C++? But programming language and hardware have pretty much nothing to do with algorithms, like lineup logic.


One thing in this sort of discussion is that as often said about trading algorithms as well, you think in terms of player ratings (and in-game stats if they are used at all) and *not* the real player names, because the game doesn't develop a man crush on a player named Derek Jeter, for example.

There are many players in the game with very uneven splits (RH vs. LH), the lineup "shake-up" could happen when you have a couple players who hit particularly well in one-side. (Scott Hairston in my Mets franchise was a legit power threat in 11... who would think he should hit in the middle of the line up though??) I'm just bringing this up, and not really defending the lineup logic though.


But does anyone know a baseball game that has a very decent lineup logic by itself?

no graph or chart?
ur slipping!