Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

I've never understood the people who want to have the same injuries as real life, the exact same lineups, etc. The stats and wins/losses are still going to be very different!

I don't want exactly perfect lineups. Hell, I don't even know what place in the lineup Todd Helton hit last year (probably 2, 3, or 4), but I do know he didn't bat 8th. A player with Helton's attributes wouldn't bat 8th, plain and simple unless it was some All-Star team maybe and Helton's attributes were lower than most of the team.

[PsychoBulk]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

This is one thing I think many people on here need to realize. I've never understood the people who want to have the same injuries as real life, the exact same lineups, etc. The stats and wins/losses are still going to be very different! Same thing with doing the same trades as real life, WHY? I want to make my OWN decisions. I've said this before but my Phillies' team in the Show is MY team not Ruben Amaro Jr's. I also am setting the lineups MY way not the way Ol' Cholly does.

It's a video game, it's a chance to run a team the way you want to, why limit yourself with that? Jimmy Rollins is always our leadoff guy it seems. Who do I bat leadoff? Placido Polanco. He's got high contact and good speed. I also platoon Thome/Howard at 1B since Thome has much better contact/power against lefties (though it's not much better).

I can understand wanting the real lineups for online play but when I play franchise, it's my own baseball world I'm stepping into. It's a "What if I were to take over the Phillies? What would I do?" I also NEVER use 30 team control because I want the CPU to be making decisions. Let's see what trades are made, let's see what injuries happen, etc. I'll watch real life baseball to get the real life narrative, when I play the show I want a different story for that season. Maybe I'll sweep the playoffs while the real life phillies get knocked out in the NLDS again.

I had to pick up on this.

Truly excellent post.

Yes we would like certain aspects of the lineup/trade logic to be perhaps, shall we say, more refined, however, do what Based Doc does, what i do and what many people do, and throw yourself into your own baseball world that The Show provides.

Is it perfect? Of course not, but it is what you make of it.

[PsychoBulk]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

A player with Helton's attributes wouldn't bat 8th, plain and simple

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5870/situational?year=career&type=Batting

I guess they made the stats up for the games when Helton actually did bat 8th then

Hell, hes even got 32 at bats in the 9 hole...hes batted in every position in the order over his career.

Mad mad world.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/...r&type=Batting

I guess they made the stats up for the games when Helton actually did bat 8th then

Hell, hes even got 32 at bats in the 9 hole...hes batted in every position in the order over his career.

Mad mad world.

That's because of pinch hitting. I don't understand why so many of you dismiss or defend such obvious flaws in this game. THIS IS THE 9TH GAME OF THIS SERIES, lineup logic should be at least logical by now. Will it mirror real life perfectly? No, and I don't expect it to. This isn't a thread complaining Pujols is batting 2nd instead of 3rd, this is a Pujols is batting 8th complaint, big difference.

[nomo17k]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

That's because of pinch hitting. I don't understand why so many of you dismiss or defend such obvious flaws in this game. THIS IS THE 9TH GAME OF THIS SERIES, lineup logic should be at least logical by now. Will it mirror real life perfectly? No, and I don't expect it to. This isn't a thread complaining Pujols is batting 2nd instead of 3rd, this is a Pujols is batting 8th complaint, big difference.

The way I see your posts is that you do often make valid points. However, you don't necessarily have to follow/precede that by comments with snide implications/explications. That gets to people. That's partly why people often end up divided into defenders and... well, offenders ... for lack of a better term.

I think people understand your points. Whether it's easy to fix or not, that's debatable since if it's so easy then it should've been done very well already.

[tabarnes19_SDS]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

That's because of pinch hitting. I don't understand why so many of you dismiss or defend such obvious flaws in this game. THIS IS THE 9TH GAME OF THIS SERIES, lineup logic should be at least logical by now. Will it mirror real life perfectly? No, and I don't expect it to. This isn't a thread complaining Pujols is batting 2nd instead of 3rd, this is a Pujols is batting 8th complaint, big difference.

I have probably simmed as much as anyone and not once have I seen Pujols bat 8th. Sometimes things get blown out of proportion here. Like Knight said before there are some small tweaks that can be made, but not as horrible as some are saying.

[moemoe24]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

I don't care what anyone says, this game lineup logic worked better in 2008 when they would just replace the guy that needs rest with a sub and have the sub bat in the starters spot in the order.

For example, if Adrain beltre needed a day off his backup would just be placed at third base and hit fourth in the lineup. That way was a lot better than the CPU shifting the lineups around to accommodate a substitute. Even though it wouldnt be good to see Omar quintinilla batting clean up its tolerable for one game here and there.

Basically with the lineups getting messed up simmed stats are not going to be realistic.

[ptbnl]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

How lineups should be programmed:

1st) You determine the 3rd place hitter, best overall hitter, great contact and at least a power of 50 or higher. Look for the best contact guy and place the best contact guy with at least 50 power there.

2nd) You place in the #4 hitter, the most power with contact being at least 50.

3rd) The #5 hitter is whoever has the most power after picking the #3 and #4 hitters.

4th) Find the leadoff guy. You want a guy with a high OBP and ideally speed. Look at contact, plate discipline and vision, and speed. Look at the players left over with the highest contact. Look at plate discipline next. Then of the 2 best qualified players, take the fastest player for leadoff. Anyone over 50-60 power would be disqualified.

5th) Put the guy that didn't make the leadoff man cut as the number 2 hitter.

6th) Whoever left that has the most power bats 6th.

7th) If a National league team, put the highest contact and discipline guy 8th to hit in front of the pitcher. If American league team, use the same logic to determine the leadoff guy again, and place that hitter 9th.

8th) For NL, place the last player in the 7th spot and the pitcher bats 9th. Place the best contact guy out of the last 2 players 7th and have the last player left bat 8th.

That was just off the top of my head. I'm sure that logic would stop Carlos Beltran and Jayson Werth from hitting 1st, along with stopping Todd Helton hitting 8th. With more time, I could come up with a very solid lineup logic. It really isn't that hard.

First, I agree with just about everything in this post.

But, I think the problem comes when (for example) the computer sees a guy with both high contact and power and can't decide where to put him. So it splits the difference.

Or the guy with the best contact on the team is also the fastest. Or the power guy should be the three-hitter. The CPU tries to answer all of that and I think it gets confused.

However, WE know that A-Rod wouldn't bat in the two-spot. Or that David Wright wouldn't be a lead-off guy, or whatever. The CPU just sees ratings, not real-life people who have spots pretty much determined already.

It's just making a lineup based on where the ratings make sense for scoring runs or being productive. It's almost Bill Jamesian, to be honest.

In fact, I think James even suggested that your best hitter should lead-off or something like that (getting him the most at-bats possible over the season), but he concedes that hitter should be in a position to drive in runs (probably second or third, maybe fourth in reality).

[Redacted01]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

I always had Quintinilla batting cleanup. Was I doing it wrong?

[Pared]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Lineup logic is separate from the logic that dictates who starts. I'm not saying go throughout the whole team and apply that logic. After the game decides the starting 9, then you go through the lineup logic to set the lineup.

It's all one and the same. Again, you're looking at names. There are teams that have players more highly rated in the areas you're talking about on the bench and not starting. There are also teams where your logic wouldn't apply.

It's not "simple" at all. Please stop pretending like it is.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

I have probably simmed as much as anyone and not once have I seen Pujols bat 8th. Sometimes things get blown out of proportion here. Like Knight said before there are some small tweaks that can be made, but not as horrible as some are saying.

What I meant by using Pujols as an example is that the lineup logic is so poor, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw Pujols batting 8th. I've already seen Helton batting 8th. I haven't even played Angels yet so Pujols has not batted 8th in my game... yet. Again, I'm not complaining about minor lineup issues, but major lineup issues. I'm tried of this series getting simple and basic things so wrong. I don't expect Lineup logic to be perfect, but it should make some kind of sense. Also, the OF positioning is still way off, the RF plays way too shallow making outs at 1B very possible on singles and doubles over the RF's head way too easy, this was a problem last year too. It's sad to see such simple issues not fixed. And, you can't hit a ground ball down the line to the wall; yet another basic thing that any good baseball game should have down especially 9 games into the series. I've discovered all these simple and very fixable issues in 10 games played, how can stuff like this be missed?

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

It's all one and the same. Again, you're looking at names. There are teams that have players more highly rated in the areas you're talking about on the bench and not starting. There are also teams where your logic wouldn't apply.

It's not "simple" at all. Please stop pretending like it is.

I'M NOT LOOKING AT NAMES. I'm looking at the ATTRIBUTES of Todd Helton. I don't understand how many times I have to say this (it's in my initial post too). There is no reason a player with Todd Helton's ATTRIBUTES should be hitting 8th. Lineup logic is simple enough to not have such gross mistakes.

[Redacted01]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

What I meant by using Pujols as an example is that the lineup logic is so poor, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw Pujols batting 8th. I've already seen Helton batting 8th. I haven't even played Angels yet so Pujols has not batted 8th in my game... yet. Again, I'm not complaining about minor lineup issues, but major lineup issues. I'm tried of this series getting simple and basic things so wrong. I don't expect Lineup logic to be perfect, but it should make some kind of sense. Also, the OF positioning is still way off, the RF plays way too shallow making outs at 1B very possible on singles and doubles over the RF's head way too easy, this was a problem last year too. It's sad to see such simple issues not fixed. And, you can't hit a ground ball down the line to the wall; yet another basic thing that any good baseball game should have down especially 9 games into the series. I've discovered all these simple and very fixable issues in 10 games played, how can stuff like this be missed?

Just because you haven't doesn't mean it isn't possible. I've done it several times in my RTTS so far.

[BlingBling19]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Having 30 team control means really nothing. If you don't wanna look at another team all season you don't have to. I usually sim the games for the day before I play my franchise game so the scoreboard between innings shows the games in progress and that's really the only thing that takes time. It also takes maybe an extra 35 seconds.

Having all the CPU teams on auto-pilot and knowing that there lineups will be how you set them provides the most realistic way to play this game from a stats standpoint I have found.

Now the trades thing I dunno much about. I am not sure in 30 team control if you allow CPU trades teams will make trades. I haven't messed with that before and haven't really noticed.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Lineup logic still needs a lot of work

Just because you haven't doesn't mean it isn't possible. I've done it several times in my RTTS so far.

I'd like to see a video of that. I've smashed grounders down the line only to have the ball die about halfway between 3B and the wall. I don't see how the ball can get to the wall unless it hits off the bag maybe.

Having all the CPU teams on auto-pilot and knowing that there lineups will be how you set them provides the most realistic way to play this game from a stats standpoint I have found.

The CPU should be able to put together logical lineups. I don't require that the CPU set the lineup to mirror real life. That's what 30 team control is SUPPOSED to be for.