Loooooooong Singles.

[BaylorBearBryant]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

You know what? At first I didn't think there was a cause for concern, but now I'm beginning to think there might be something to it.

The more and more, I play I see players hit balls down the line that should at least be close plays at second. Instead, my baserunner barely rounds first and the ball is in at second.

[chadomac]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

It's a huge problem and it's really annoying. I've considered going back to 2011 because of it. I hit balls off the top of the wall and I get a single because I'll be gunned out at 2B if I go for what SHOULD BE a standing double.

Same goes for those balls that are hit down the lines that just die instead of rolling into the gaps. And if you hit them really hard into the gaps they're singles because they were hit too hard. It shouldn't be like that every single time, but it is. The physics looked like they were going to be the reason this game was the best version, but there are a lot of problems with them.

[joshize]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

I still say it's because of the new batting animations... batters don't hurry out of the box when they think they might have extra bases. They do that twist thing that looks cool.. but just isn't fast enough or realistic. Most hitters won't take their time when they hit a ball in the gap... they know it could be a double or triple so they bust out of the gate. I play at PNC Park where if McCutchen hits a ball in that little nook, he's going to try for third 50% of the time... and I don't have a shot ever. I'm getting to second when the relay man catches the ball.

Too slow out of the box... and the outfielders take the best routes ever.

[nomo17k]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

I still say it's because of the new batting animations... batters don't hurry out of the box when they think they might have extra bases. They do that twist thing that looks cool.. but just isn't fast enough or realistic. Most hitters won't take their time when they hit a ball in the gap... they know it could be a double or triple so they bust out of the gate. I play at PNC Park where if McCutchen hits a ball in that little nook, he's going to try for third 50% of the time... and I don't have a shot ever. I'm getting to second when the relay man catches the ball.

Too slow out of the box... and the outfielders take the best routes ever.

I think this is partly an issue. I didn't thought of this for extra base hits (which by numbers they are just fine, though how some of them happen might not be realistic).

Come to think of it, this is probably also a reason why GIDPs happen more often in the game than in real life. They are often not quick enough out of the box.

[moemoe24]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

This is yet another example how this once awesome game took a step backwards. Last night I hit a ball into the dead corner of rangers ballpark with mike Napoli and got thrown out at second. And I don't want to hear "well, it's mike Napoli, he's slow". If u hit a ball to the corner, all the way to the wall, it doesn't matter how slow u are it's a for sure double.

[Bobhead]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

Come to think of it, this is probably also a reason why GIDPs happen more often in the game than in real life. They are often not quick enough out of the box.

I really don't think this is much of a part of it, because there's a huge disparity between the number of GIDPs by the CPU and by a human player. I think your other theory is more spot on, the CPU just hits way too many ground balls. I will miss non-breaking ball pitches over the middle of the plate and high in the zone and the CPU will still hit a ground ball. It's crazy...

[nomo17k]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

I really don't think this is much of a part of it, because there's a huge disparity between the number of GIDPs by the CPU and by a human player. I think your other theory is more spot on, the CPU just hits way too many ground balls. I will miss non-breaking ball pitches over the middle of the plate and high in the zone and the CPU will still hit a ground ball. It's crazy...

(Most of my sweeping generalizations come from CPU vs. CPU games, so some things may not apply when HUM players are involved.)

While it's true that the game produces slightly more ground balls in general, it's not by a huge margin. IRL, about 44% of batted balls are grounders, but in game, it's consistently in the 45 - 46% range. This is consistently so (with settings very close to default), but is not big enough to account for almost a 30% increase in GIDPs in the game.

I measured BR Speed by using a bunch movies, so with the default slider or close to it, I'm confident that runners are moving at roughly the correct speed.

So where could that 30% come from? Maybe infielders' arms are too strong? Possible, but I've already decreased Fielder Arm Strength to 2 (out of 10, which might still be too strong for infielders, but hey...). Are infielders getting to too many ground balls which shouldn't be caught? I've decreased Fielder Reaction to 4, but I doubt this should amount to 30% anyways...

But I quite often see the batter not getting a good jump at all out of the box. What I usually do and am currently doing is to create a left-handed speedster in RTTS to simulate a slap hitter. It's not very easy to do this in the game. Quite often, he grounds out to SS but he won't start running during the follow-through (instead he does full follow through), so even though his speed rating is very high, he's often out at 1B by a mile.

So by elimination, I'm guessing that might significantly contribute to GIDPs, and probably for doubles as well.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

There are some issues. I agree. They are not as bad as some think, nor as minute as others think.

It is harder to leg out a double, and triples are truly earned now. In 2011 triples were much easier. Doubles were easier as well.

I hope they can tune this with one more patch to find that balance.

But overall it is not a huge problem. It is a minor thing and I have already adjusted in being a tad less aggressive with slower runners. With my burners I have learned how to read the ball of the bat better and learn the different parks so far as what gaps and corners i can take advantage of. Also know your opposition better. It helps knowing who is gifted and who is average (arm strength, speed etc).

Outfielders do take perfect routes. Sliders help this issue. Lower fielder speed, arm strength and fielder reaction.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

Nomo, I have to respectfully disagree.

I still believe the 30% increase has to do with the CPU not intentionally trying to avoid groundballs in runners on 1st situations. This has very little to do with Arm Strength or fielding ability. This is a situational programming issue. Nothing less, nothing more.

And your own data supports this.

[nomo17k]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

Nomo, I have to respectfully disagree.

I still believe the 30% increase has to do with the CPU not intentionally trying to avoid groundballs in runners on 1st situations. This has very little to do with Arm Strength or fielding ability. This is a situational programming issue. Nothing less, nothing more.

And your own data supports this.

Which data (of mine or not) support this?

Your theory may still be true (given that CPU pitchers do try to induce grounders by throwing low in those situations, but CPU batters might not be doing as good a job laying them off), and if so I hope the devs do something about it in future. But to my knowledge I don't think there hasn't been anything that indicates that is really is the case convincingly?

But I still think there should be a batting follow-through(s) suitable for slap hitters though. That's one of the major reasons why Ichiro cannot be simulated well in the game (he's been very mediocre for me in past years, though this year he's on fire hitting .350 in my testings...)....

[ralphieboy11]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

(Most of my sweeping generalizations come from CPU vs. CPU games, so some things may not apply when HUM players are involved.)

While it's true that the game produces slightly more ground balls in general, it's not by a huge margin. IRL, about 44% of batted balls are grounders, but in game, it's consistently in the 45 - 46% range. This is consistently so (with settings very close to default), but is not big enough to account for almost a 30% increase in GIDPs in the game.

I measured BR Speed by using a bunch movies, so with the default slider or close to it, I'm confident that runners are moving at roughly the correct speed.

So where could that 30% come from? Maybe infielders' arms are too strong? Possible, but I've already decreased Fielder Arm Strength to 2 (out of 10, which might still be too strong for infielders, but hey...). Are infielders getting to too many ground balls which shouldn't be caught? I've decreased Fielder Reaction to 4, but I doubt this should amount to 30% anyways...

But I quite often see the batter not getting a good jump at all out of the box. What I usually do and am currently doing is to create a left-handed speedster in RTTS to simulate a slap hitter. It's not very easy to do this in the game. Quite often, he grounds out to SS but he won't start running during the follow-through (instead he does full follow through), so even though his speed rating is very high, he's often out at 1B by a mile.

So by elimination, I'm guessing that might significantly contribute to GIDPs, and probably for doubles as well.

One thing I've noticed that the CPU does which is a little annoying is it has an uncanny ability to know that it can get a force out at 2nd base on a runner stationed on first.

In real baseball, when you see a grounder, the infielder will many times take the "safe" play and get the runner at first, allowing the runner stationed at first base to get into 2nd.

The AI in the Show always seems to go for that lead runner, even if it is going to be a bang-bang play at 2nd base.

Therefore, you rarely see a ground ball with a runner at first base that results in a runner moving to 2nd on the play. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you rarely see ground balls to 2nd or SS where it happens.

When they cut down the lead runner with no one out, the team is set up to turn a possible double play on the next AB.

I don't think this counts for much in the spike in double plays, but it can't help matters.

I still think the major problem with DPs is the arm strength of the infielders, even with arm strength at 2. They get too much zip on that little side arm throw they do.

[Bobhead]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

I wonder if there is some sort of statistic available somewhere that shows how often a batter hits a ground ball when there is a runner on first base? I have absolutely no data supporting this theory, but I think that this may be the problem. Real batters know to keep the ball in the air to avoid double plays, while CPU batters in The Show don't seem to change their approach at all.

Also Nomo your data shows a The Show GB% of 48%. Remember that choppers are ground balls, and that the two aren't separated from one another in any real life stats you are using.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

Which data (of mine or not) support this?

Your theory may still be true (given that CPU pitchers do try to induce grounders by throwing low in those situations, but CPU batters might not be doing as good a job laying them off), and if so I hope the devs do something about it in future. But to my knowledge I don't think there hasn't been anything that indicates that is really is the case convincingly?

But I still think there should be a batting follow-through(s) suitable for slap hitters though. That's one of the major reasons why Ichiro cannot be simulated well in the game (he's been very mediocre for me in past years, though this year he's on fire hitting .350 in my testings...)....

First, just to get this out of the way. Brett Gardner is hitting .345 for me in just under 100 AB's. My team average is around .270 most of the time (always below .280, usually in the .260's). Contact hitters are well represented in 12.

Which stats? A 30% increase in GIDP's versus real life with only a 1-2% increase in overall groundballs. And the fact that dropping run speed and arm strength have little impact (certainly not a 30% decrease worth of an impact). And regardless, we shouldn't have to drop these things even if they were capable of addressing this issue because they'd create new ones.

Pitcher's have to be programmed to pitch to the DP. That's essentially their goal. The hitter's goal should be to avoid it, which they are not currently.

I can provide evidence that when playing, I'm grounding out in to significantly less DP's than the CPU. For various reasons. The big one I keep returning to is that I use swing influence. The CPU needs to influence flyball more often situationally.

I almost always pitch to the API too. So this isn't a matter of me never throwing balls up in the zone during GIDP situations.

I have grounded out into far less than one DP per game. The CPU has grounded into extraordinarily more. Unless the API logic differs greatly from the CPU pitching logic, this issue is not a pitcher one. It's a CPU hitter one.

I try to avoid them, they seem not to. At least not often enough or as often as I do.

[nomo17k]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

I wonder if there is some sort of statistic available somewhere that shows how often a batter hits a ground ball when there is a runner on first base? I have absolutely no data supporting this theory, but I think that this may be the problem. Real batters know to keep the ball in the air to avoid double plays, while CPU batters in The Show don't seem to change their approach at all.

Also Nomo your data shows a The Show GB% of 48%. Remember that choppers are ground balls, and that the two aren't separated from one another in any real life stats you are using.

Is this from last year's? This year i don't think it's been that high. Eyeballing the spreadsheets it's usually 44 - 47%, regardless of slider settings which I haven't deviated from default too much (not the one which affect this aspect anyways...) I do include choppers as grounders and popups as fly balls in my spreadsheets, when computing FB%, LD%, GD%, etc.

Regarding the stats you mentioned, the only way to do that with the Show is to track manually. I wouldn't recommend people do that, it's just tedious and boring.

In pitcher/batter analysis, there is a filter for "Bases Empty" but not other situations. If there were a filter for "Runner on 1B" then you could get stats pretty easily.

[nomo17k]

Re: Loooooooong Singles.

First, just to get this out of the way. Brett Gardner is hitting .345 for me in just under 100 AB's. My team average is around .270 most of the time (always below .280, usually in the .260's). Contact hitters are well represented in 12.

I think I'm noticing this too, though not perfectly convinced just yet. If something changed, then I think that's for good...

But I still stand that the game can still improve in that there should be slightly more ways to make "poor hits" into safe hits, one of which is by adopting a slap hitting style. If you have a great speed, left-handed, and is a high Vision/low Contact hitter (therefore a lot of poor, not solid hits), you could slap pitches to the opposite field a bit more and just hope some of them become infield hits. The game doesn't need to accommodate some extreme type of this like Ichiro, but I think it would be a good addition for variety. Brett Butler, Michael Bourn... that type of player.

Anyway, this isn't about loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong single!!! Even though I've been single for a looooooooooong time, I digress..

Which stats? A 30% increase in GIDP's versus real life with only a 1-2% increase in overall groundballs. And the fact that dropping run speed and arm strength have little impact (certainly not a 30% decrease worth of an impact). And regardless, we shouldn't have to drop these things even if they were capable of addressing this issue because they'd create new ones.

Pitcher's have to be programmed to pitch to the DP. That's essentially their goal. The hitter's goal should be to avoid it, which they are not currently.

I can provide evidence that when playing, I'm grounding out in to significantly less DP's than the CPU. For various reasons. The big one I keep returning to is that I use swing influence. The CPU needs to influence flyball more often situationally.

I almost always pitch to the API too. So this isn't a matter of me never throwing balls up in the zone during GIDP situations.

I have grounded out into far less than one DP per game. The CPU has grounded into extraordinarily more. Unless the API logic differs greatly from the CPU pitching logic, this issue is not a pitcher one. It's a CPU hitter one.

I try to avoid them, they seem not to. At least not often enough or as often as I do.

I can totally see this could be the reason. Just not clear it *really* is what's going on without conclusive evidence and/or internal knowlegde. But I do think it's a point worth mentioning to the devs. Have you done it? It's not a bug, so it shouldn't go there, but how do you present this to convince that it's an issue worth their time to revisit? I guess I'm just looking for the way, since I'm just as disappointed as you are every time a rally gets killed by a routine grounder.