Blown save statistic question.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

You guys realize the save isn't a real thing, right? It was made up by writers in the 50s and 60s.

And its the only reason "closers" exist as they're used today. It's an artificial role created by a made-up stat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_(baseball)#History

When the baseball writers made the stat a save was expected to be at least 3 innings. Then Tony La Russa came about with Dennis Eckersley and pitched him only in the 9th inning to get a save and everyone else followed suit.

[Redacted01]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

You guys realize the save isn't a real thing, right? It was made up by writers in the 50s and 60s.

And its the only reason "closers" exist as they're used today. It's an artificial role created by a made-up stat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_(baseball)#History

So Mariano has 600 something of nothing? It is real, no matter what you want to believe, and is recognized by MLB, as there are clearly rules to earn them. However, some people go overboard with them. If the Giants survive with their bullpen by committee, just goes to show that having people forced into 8th and 9th-inning roles is not as good as just letting those pitch who give your best chance. If that means using multiple pitchers in the 9th or using 2 guys depending on R/L matchups, then so be it. If it means you win, then you win!

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

So Mariano has 600 something of nothing? It is real, no matter what you want to believe, and is recognized by MLB, as there are clearly rules to earn them. However, some people go overboard with them. If the Giants survive with their bullpen by committee, just goes to show that having people forced into 8th and 9th-inning roles is not as good as just letting those pitch who give your best chance. If that means using multiple pitchers in the 9th or using 2 guys depending on R/L matchups, then so be it. If it means you win, then you win!

I couldn't agree more. If I were a manager and the game was on the line in the 7th inning I would most definitely pitch my best bullpen pitcher in that situation regardless of if he were my "closer"

[Bobhead]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

We're getting wayyyy off topic here, but I think a big part of it is ego and laziness on the part of the pitchers themselves.

A lot of pitchers aren't comfortable not knowing what inning they will pitch in. It's hard enough having to be ready to pitch every single day, and it makes it even harder when you don't even know what inning you have to mentally prepare for. Personally I think this stuff is nonsense and that relief pitchers are the most coddled adults in professional sports, but that's beyond the point.

Even moreso, pitchers don't like the idea of there not being a "hierarchy" in the bullpen. They want the position of closer to exist, because it gives them the opportunity of being one.

Ask K-Rod, who publically expressed how much he didn't like the idea of being a set-up man.

[jkra0512]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Honestly, the Save statistic is a little too complicated. I think the Hold statistic should take precedent over the Save category in any inning other than the last inning. It's just too confusing and should be cleaned up. I remember that O's/Rangers game and no way that should EVER be considered a "save".

I had this same question last year, JG1986. I know SCEA has it right, but MLB has it all wrong.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Honestly, the Save statistic is a little too complicated. I think the Hold statistic should take precedent over the Save category in any inning other than the last inning. It's just too confusing and should be cleaned up. I remember that O's/Rangers game and no way that should EVER be considered a "save".

I had this same question last year, JG1986. I know SCEA has it right, but MLB has it all wrong.

I really don't see how the save statistic is complicated.

[ptbnl]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I take it no one here ever read firejoemorgan.com before. Saves are overrated. Closers are overrated. It's a role and a stat that was created and perpetuated by the media that now govern how the game is managed.

Think about it: If a manager has a key situation in the game when preventing a run is paramount, he should use his best relief pitcher available.

Instead, because Joe Girardi or Terry Francona or Joe Madden will be skewered in the press the next day if he uses his top guy in the sixth inning, they use a middle reliever. Those guys are almost always your worst relief pitcher (not good enough to be a "closer" or "set up," and probably doesn't have the stamina/repertoire to be a long reliever).

So you put the game in the hands of perhaps your worst pitcher? No, you should be using your best players at that point. You wouldn't send your worst hitter to the plate as a pinch hitter with the game on the line, would you?

Pretty much any major league-quality pitcher should be able to get three outs before giving up three runs.

It's a silly and media-driven stat.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I take it no one here ever read firejoemorgan.com before. Saves are overrated. Closers are overrated. It's a role and a stat that was created and perpetuated by the media that now govern how the game is managed.

Think about it: If a manager has a key situation in the game when preventing a run is paramount, he should use his best relief pitcher available.

Instead, because Joe Girardi or Terry Francona or Joe Madden will be skewered in the press the next day if he uses his top guy in the sixth inning, they use a middle reliever. Those guys are almost always your worst relief pitcher (not good enough to be a "closer" or "set up," and probably doesn't have the stamina/repertoire to be a long reliever).

So you put the game in the hands of perhaps your worst pitcher? No, you should be using your best players at that point. You wouldn't send your worst hitter to the plate as a pinch hitter with the game on the line, would you?

Pretty much any major league-quality pitcher should be able to get three outs before giving up three runs.

It's a silly and media-driven stat.

I totally agree. Like I said I would use my best pitcher in the most high leverage situations and that's the way I do it on The Show.

What made Tony La Russa such a great manager in his later years with the Cardinals was he didn't have 1 set closer. He used the best pitcher in the most important situations and boom he won 2 World Series with the Cardinals doing that.

[jkra0512]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I really don't see how the save statistic is complicated.

To have a few different ways of achieving that particular statistic seems a little convoluted. A home run is achieved by hitting it over the wall or run around the bases consecutively avoiding an out, a fielding error, or a dead ball...that's pretty cut and dry as well as easy to understand/logical.

Getting a save in a game where the pitcher had a 20-run lead, that's somehow the same as a player who saves a game with only a one-run lead? Then, it's not a save if you're up by four runs, but set down the side in order to end the game. It just seems like an unnecessary mess of a statistic that could be cleaned up, that's all I'm saying.

I think MLB needs to recognize and possibly expand the Hold stat. I would gladly recognize a 20-run Hold, but a 20-run Save is a bit ridiculous.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

To have a few different ways of achieving that particular statistic seems a little convoluted. A home run is achieved by hitting it over the wall or run around the bases consecutively avoiding an out, a fielding error, or a dead ball...that's pretty cut and dry as well as easy to understand/logical.

Getting a save in a game where the pitcher had a 20-run lead, that's somehow the same as a player who saves a game with only a one-run lead? Then, it's not a save if you're up by four runs, but set down the side in order to end the game. It just seems like an unnecessary mess of a statistic that could be cleaned up, that's all I'm saying.

I think MLB needs to recognize and possibly expand the Hold stat. I would gladly recognize a 20-run Hold, but a 20-run Save is a bit ridiculous.

The reason you can get a save with a 20-run lead if the the save statistic was created back in the 50s and 60s. Back then if the starting pitcher didn't finish the game the guy that came into the game from the bullpen did finish the game and many times that including the pitcher pitching the final 3 innings of the game to get that save. There was no such thing as a 1 inning save back then because pitchers weren't used for only 1 inning back then. It didn't matter what the score was. Score had nothing to do with it.

It wasn't till Tony La Russa with the A's in the late 80s and Dennis Eckersley started pitching only 1 inning (9th inning) to get a save for his closer that baseball changed to the way you know it today as the closer pitching the 9th inning to get the save and then score came into play.

But the reason the rule wasn't changed is how many 3 inning saves do you see now days? Not very many. It just doesn't happen.

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Ok, so I have another question since this thread seems to be reinvigorated. This deals with saves, as well. Why is this not a save? Ramon Ramirez comes in the bottom of the 9th and blows the save. I don't think this would typically happen but I left Ramirez in the 10th because he only threw 10 pitches to two batters in the 9th but gave up a first pitch home run to put me down 7-6, hence blowing the save. I get through the 10th inning no problem. The winning pitcher is Ramirez, but he does not get credited with a save. Is that not a save opportunity or can you not get a win and save in the same game as one pitcher? This has happened a couple of times to me so I'm curious and would rather talk about it on the forum than searching about it on google, lol.

[Mabster]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

or can you not get a win and save in the same game as one pitcher?

This. The win statistic takes precedent over the save statistic. You didn't say how you took the lead back but sound like Ramirez was the pitcher of record when the lead was taken back so he is credited with the win.

The same pitcher can however be credited with a Blown Save and Win in the same game.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Ok, so I have another question since this thread seems to be reinvigorated. This deals with saves, as well. Why is this not a save? Ramon Ramirez comes in the bottom of the 9th and blows the save. I don't think this would typically happen but I left Ramirez in the 10th because he only threw 10 pitches to two batters in the 9th but gave up a first pitch home run to put me down 7-6, hence blowing the save. I get through the 10th inning no problem. The winning pitcher is Ramirez, but he does not get credited with a save. Is that not a save opportunity or can you not get a win and save in the same game as one pitcher? This has happened a couple of times to me so I'm curious and would rather talk about it on the forum than searching about it on google, lol.

You cannot get a win and a save in the same game with the same pitcher and you cannot get a save and a blown save in the same game with the pitcher. What you just described would be a blown save and that pitcher still getting the win. That happens a lot in baseball.

Also if a pitcher is up into the game to pitch the 9th inning and has a 6-run [8-2 score] lead but allows 4 runs and the game ends at [8-6] that pitcher does not get credit for a save because you cannot pitch yourself into a save chance.

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

This. The win statistic takes precedent over the save statistic. You didn't say how you took the lead back but sound like Ramirez was the pitcher of record when the lead was taken back so he is credited with the win.

The same pitcher can however be credited with a Blown Save and Win in the same game.

Yes, Ramirez was in the game when I took back the lead (top of the 10th). So a pitcher can be credited with a blown save AND win but NOT a save and win, even though he clearly was in the game with a save opportunity (bottom of the 10th, I was winning 7-6)? I wonder why that is.

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

You cannot get a win and a save in the same game with the same pitcher and you cannot get a save and a blown save in the same game with the pitcher. What you just described would be a blown save and that pitcher still getting the win. That happens a lot in baseball.

Also if a pitcher is up into the game to pitch the 9th inning and has a 6-run [8-2 score] lead but allows 4 runs and the game ends at [8-6] that pitcher does not get credit for a save because you cannot pitch yourself into a save chance.

Understood. I guess I'm just asking, "philosophically," why a pitcher can be credited with a blown save and win and not a save and win?