Blown save statistic question.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Yes, Ramirez was in the game when I took back the lead (top of the 10th). So a pitcher can be credited with a blown save AND win but NOT a save and win, even though he clearly was in the game with a save opportunity (bottom of the 10th, I was winning 7-6)? I wonder why that is.

Because you cannot pitch yourself into a save situation. Him blowing the 1st save and then the team getting him the lead back would be giving him another chance at the save is considered pitching yourself into a save situation.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Understood. I guess I'm just asking, "philosophically," why a pitcher can be credited with a blown save and win and not a save and win?

The reason a pitcher can be credited with a blown save and a win is because first he blew the save and when that happens he then becomes the pitcher of record [meaning he would get the win or loss] and his team takes the lead back and that ends up getting him the win.

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Because you cannot pitch yourself into a save situation. Him blowing the 1st save and then the team getting him the lead back would be giving him another chance at the save is considered pitching yourself into a save situation.

I see. Last question then- can you be credited with two blown saves in the same game? Let's say Ramirez blew it AGAIN in the bottom of the 10th (I would def take him out of the game at this point, I'm just wondering from a statistical stand point)? But I came back in the top of the 11th and went ahead. I bring in a new pitcher for the save in the bottom of the 11th. Does Ramirez get another blown save though?

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I see. Last question then- can you be credited with two blown saves in the same game? Let's say Ramirez blew it AGAIN in the bottom of the 10th (I would def take him out of the game at this point, I'm just wondering from a statistical stand point)? But I came back in the top of the 11th and went ahead. I bring in a new pitcher for the save in the bottom of the 11th. Does Ramirez get another blown save though?

I don't know. I thought I knew the answer but I guess I don't. I tried to do a google search and came up empty. That's why I deleted that other post. I didn't want to give out the wrong info.

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I don't know. I thought I knew the answer but I guess I don't. I tried to do a google search and came up empty. That's why I deleted that other post. I didn't want to give out the wrong info.

hahah No problem man. I commented on what you said, but realized you deleted your comment because you may have second guessed yourself, and deleted my comment too. I'm looking as we speak and can't find anything either.

[Mabster]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

You can't get two blown saves. When you blow the first one, you are now the pitcher of record and can only get the L, W or no decision. Same thing as said before, you can't pitch your self into a save situation therefore you can't pitch yourself into a position to blow another save either.

[ptbnl]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

I see. Last question then- can you be credited with two blown saves in the same game? Let's say Ramirez blew it AGAIN in the bottom of the 10th (I would def take him out of the game at this point, I'm just wondering from a statistical stand point)? But I came back in the top of the 11th and went ahead. I bring in a new pitcher for the save in the bottom of the 11th. Does Ramirez get another blown save though?

How would he get a blown save? Did he leave the game and return? The only way that he could leave as a pitcher and still return in a save situation would be if you moved him to a defensive position and not taking him out of the game.

If you brought in a reliever with a lead in a save situation, he would be in a save opportunity. If he blew that save (blown save), he would become the pitcher of record (be awarded a win or a loss), until he is removed from the game.

If you took the lead in your offensive turn, he would then be in line to get the win, no matter if he was in the game or not at that point.

The only way to get him a second blown save (that I can think of), would be to move him to another position, have a new pitcher be in position to win (by taking the lead with the new reliever as POR) and then have "Ramirez" return to the mound to end the game and yet give up the lead again.

I'm not sure that's even possible in the scoring rules, but that's the only way I can think of it.

[Mabster]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

The only way to get him a second blown save (that I can think of), would be to move him to another position, have a new pitcher be in position to win (by taking the lead with the new reliever as POR) and then have "Ramirez" return to the mound to end the game and yet give up the lead again.

I'm not sure that's even possible in the scoring rules, but that's the only way I can think of it.

Great point. There was a game with in the last couple years where a manager did something screwy. I think it was in AZ? Went something like this.

The manager was playing lefty/righty match up, brought a pitcher in for one batter, go the out. Moved him to right field and brought in a new pitcher to intentionally walk the next batter. Then moved the right fielder back to the mound to finish the inning.

Now I'm wondering if the 2 blown saves is possible after all.

Edit: My memory wasn't exactly right. It was in Houston and the particulars where wrong too. http://tinyurl.com/7dawtwv

Edit2: Wonder if a pitcher could get credited with two holds in the same game with this method too...

[JG1986]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Great point. There was a game with in the last couple years where a manager did something screwy. I think it was in AZ? Went something like this.

The manager was playing lefty/righty match up, brought a pitcher in for one batter, go the out. Moved him to right field and brought in a new pitcher to intentionally walk the next batter. Then moved the right fielder back to the mound to finish the inning.

Now I'm wondering if the 2 blown saves is possible after all.

Edit: My memory wasn't exactly right. It was in Houston and the particulars where wrong too. http://tinyurl.com/7dawtwv

Edit2: Wonder if a pitcher could get credited with two holds in the same game with this method too...

Lol that's crazy I had no idea about this.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Great point. There was a game with in the last couple years where a manager did something screwy. I think it was in AZ? Went something like this.

The manager was playing lefty/righty match up, brought a pitcher in for one batter, go the out. Moved him to right field and brought in a new pitcher to intentionally walk the next batter. Then moved the right fielder back to the mound to finish the inning.

Now I'm wondering if the 2 blown saves is possible after all.

Edit: My memory wasn't exactly right. It was in Houston and the particulars where wrong too. http://tinyurl.com/7dawtwv

Edit2: Wonder if a pitcher could get credited with two holds in the same game with this method too...

Bobby Cox did it for the Braves back in 2008 in an extra innings game. Chris Resop was the pitcher. Resop pitched to a couple of batters then got put into LF and then a batter or 2 later got put back at pitcher and gave up the game-losing run.

[ptbnl]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Ha ha, this just came out today, by perhaps the best baseball writer in the country: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...&sct=hp_t11_a0

"No one wants to admit it, but the modern bullpen is a failure and the modern conventional wisdom of training pitchers is a failure. The modern specialized bullpen does no better job protecting leads than the pitching usage that preceded it."

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Ha ha, this just came out today, by perhaps the best baseball writer in the country: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...&sct=hp_t11_a0

"No one wants to admit it, but the modern bullpen is a failure and the modern conventional wisdom of training pitchers is a failure. The modern specialized bullpen does no better job protecting leads than the pitching usage that preceded it."

As a Braves fan I have seen first hand the difference in training pitchers over the course of the past 2 decades and I can tell you I long miss the days of Leo Mazzone and his way of training pitchers. He used to have pitchers throw every single day with long toss every other day and the Braves routinely got a ton of innings and complete games out of their starters. I'm not just talking about with the likes of Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux or those years where our #4 starter was an Avery, Naegle of Millwood but with guys like Jorge Sosa, Jaret Wright, Horacio Ramirez, John Burkett just to name a few. Also the Braves had very few pitching injuries over the years too.

Now since Roger McDowell has been around our pitchers to not throw every single day and do hardly ever throw complete games (heck getting past 5 innings is a major struggle) and we must lead the world in pitching injuries since 2006 (McDowell's first season).

[ptbnl]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Have you read "Living on the Black," the book by John Feinstein about Glavine and Mussina? Really good and even gets into early arm problems for Glavine being solved by throwing more, not less.

[AUTiger1]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Have you read "Living on the Black," the book by John Feinstein about Glavine and Mussina? Really good and even gets into early arm problems for Glavine being solved by throwing more, not less.

Nope. I haven't had the chance. But I do want to eventually get it. And really? I never knew that about Glavine.

[ptbnl]

Re: Blown save statistic question.

Yeah, when he turned pro, like his first season in the minors he had severe arm pain (I think the elbow, if I remember correctly). His pitching coach said, ok, we're going to shut you down, but we're going to long toss everyday. Glavine was shocked and actually worried it would make it worse, but it worked and he was back into playing once it cleared up.

It's a pretty good read (although Feinstein gets a little repetitive sometimes).