Destined to lose?

[bp4baseball]

Re: Destined to lose?

Well, I play for fun but at times do get frustrated. Last night I again pitched with Medlen. Seems like every game he gives up a home run. At this rate, he'll probably give up at least 30 homers this year. A changeup was blasted again! Even with control at 94 and movement at 99, somehow it doesn't go where I wanted and whammo!

Originally his rating for giving up homers was bad, but a roster I looked at had it at 81 and it made sense to me because of what he did last year. I edited him to 81 for home runs before starting my franchise, but it seems the game is programmed beyond the edit, or that ratings do not matter, which makes sense to me.

How exactly would having ratings that don't matter make sense? Just wondering

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

How exactly would having ratings that don't matter make sense? Just wondering

Well, Schierholtz with a rating of 50 for speed beating out a slowly hit ground ball is one example. CPU fielders with poor fielding ratings consistently making amazing plays is another example. Medlen with a rating of 81 for home runs giving up home runs in every game is another example--on pitches not going where I wanted and control of 99!

[Sairheart]

Re: Destined to lose?

You haven't provided any game stats besides the user that simmed the same game 4 times in a row. Additionaly to that post I have not seen one single statistical "prove" or whatever you want to call it which would help your point. Funny thing is: he did not tell us who was the O's pitcher (maybe a bad one?) and how well the Yankees did before those game (maybe some players being hot?). And even funnier: Nomo came in, did the same and got different results.
And I even asked for something like that (statistical proves) and was told that it would be too much work to cover.
Nomo at least has a fundamental base for his opinion and this is the programmers words. You guys only have your own feelings thus far and nothing else.
That's why I asked for some stats or something like that to have a point to go for but as long as there aren't any numbers or something like that, there won't be much progress.

But Nomo had also one game and had different results (although all being close, but not the same winning team every time).

While one should prefer numbers over anectodotal evidence, it is not the end all be all. The issue here is that people believe that the developers say such a thing is impossible, so whenever people feel like they've engaged in "scripted type" scenarios, it is dismissed as "feelings".

If you believe the game falls into "scripted type" scenarios, I don't think that also means you believe in a "comeback code" or that every win and loss is etched in stone. I think more people have been talking about "types of games" as in getting stuck in a pitchers duel, or getting involved in a barn burner/putting up a bunch of runs. While playing on Legend, I've refered to it as having the margin of error being shrunk, especially when you have gone long stretches playing very well.

Though, when I struggled to hit in the game but I was great at pitching, I noticed it wasn't hard to cruise with my starter...until I failed to get a RISP in or five of my last seven batters struck out, then the next inning I'd get into trouble. I'd often restart those games because I realized I was doing something out of habit on the hitting side...then I'd be replaying that game and I was having good AB's, scored runs in the early innings....but now my pitching was less forgiving. Less quick innings, a few less favorable calls, seeing eye hits.

A classic scenario that I've gone through through the years is when I get an early lead, 1-0, or 2-0. And then I have terrible AB's throughout the game, but I don't care because I'm pitching great and I feel like it's enough...then once my starter leaves, tight strikezone, seeing eyes...it hasn't doomed me every time but it has a lot. It's hard to put a number on that cause it all depends on how it breaks down. And if I did, it would have to be a large sample or no one would care. That's way more work than calculating the odds a team wins four games in a row. All I can do is relay the experience and see if others have had the same experience under similar circumstances.

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

Either way, I'm not sure if the results of sims is entirely indicative of what people have been complaining about here, and from what I understand the game is a very accurate sim and produces "good" box scores. I've actually been surprised to find the amount of people that actually play out every single pitch in a game, I get the impression that more people sim than not.

This is a very important point as I mentioned earlier on how you play gives such different opinions and as I mentioned alot of the guys here only play mom mode or sim alot will blindly defend the games AI because they dont actually play the games out all pitches like you and me do because the simmed box scores look fairly accurate so its not really their fault on what they perceive.
Now take us who actually play each pitch its a whole different ball game as we see the obvious AI flaws, forced trends and predictability and once again its not the outcomes but the mechanics or lack for that of as needed .

[bp4baseball]

Re: Destined to lose?

This is a very important point as I mentioned earlier on how you play gives such different opinions and as I mentioned alot of the guys here only play mom mode or sim alot will blindly defend the games AI because they dont actually play the games out all pitches like you and me do because the simmed box scores look fairly accurate so its not really their fault on what they perceive.
Now take us who actually play each pitch its a whole different ball game as we see the obvious AI flaws, forced trends and predictability and once again its not the outcomes but the mechanics or lack for that of as needed .

When it comes down to it, there has to be a balance between ratings and players skill. If outcomes were 100% ratings, we would probably see perfect stats but it wouldn't feel like we were playing. Now on the other end if it were 100% player input, you'd see players like Cabrera hitting .190.

I do play every pitch and I feel like it's a nice balance currently. Of course it can always be tweaked but it's not far off if you're on the right difficulty setting.

I feel in control but my input is appropriately impacted by the players ratings. It's easier to pitch well with an ace on the mound while I really have to focus and hit my marks when I'm pitching with a number 5 starter.

[nomo17k]

Re: Destined to lose?

Nomo, it seems that the only thing that will sway your decision is the programmers coming out and admitting the code is skewed and this simply isn't going to happen. And no offense, but maintaining such a closed mind about this is what deters progress. The fact remains that there is no evidence to prove OR disprove that any "foul" coding exists to make things interesting. Don't assume that what you say is truth because the developers said it was to increase sales and not piss off the masses here at OS. Your retorts are just as much confirmation bias as ours in that you are convinced no code exists to make things interesting. The only difference is we are actually PROVIDING real game stats and results whereas you are simply trying to disprove our actual results with nonsense formulas and figures. You have supplied just as much factual evidence as we have, so please understand that just because you or even the programmers themselves say something, it doesn't mean it's etched in stone, especially when said programmers do indeed have an agenda.

Nobody needs to sway my decision because I'm saying what I've been saying based primarily on (1) my own actually playing the game both vs HUM online and vs CPU, (2) my CPU vs. CPU test games, (3) what the SCEA developers have revealed (in documentations or forums like this), (4) what (reasonable) gamers have been stating about the game, (5) my knowledge about statistical data analysis (which is part of my day job), and (6) my knowledge about programming (which I get paid to do as well... yes I can fully understand The Show code, which I believe is mostly C or C++, if given the source code).

Of course, if programmers come out here any say anything about what I've said based on the above is incorrect, I'd just stand corrected. Because I know enough about programming.

The issue is, a lot of what you guys are doing/claiming JUST ARE PLAIN SILLY if you have a tiny bit of understanding as to the points (5) and (6). They just show the totally lack of understanding of statistical analysis and programming process. And you call them bogus?? I'm sorry but some people in this world are a little more capable than what you decide to believe.

Yes, bugs do happen. I hate them (and this year's game appear to have a few more than past years). But the game making things happen that are not explicitly coded in, on such a grand scale like forcing game situations??? Just shows you know nothing about computer programming.

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

I dont want to prove anything here and probably you guys are way past this, but what I recognized is that some games are a lot tougher to win than others in my franchise, even when i'm replaying them few times after getting frustrated. i already experienced this when playing the mlb2k series, there it was even more evident in my opinion. i could replay a game (did so cos i felt cheated) more than half a dozen times and i was unable to get anything going, then when playing an exhibition game using the same difficulty and sliders i immediately got a blow out win over the cpu, however when i went back to franchise mode same story again and no chance to win.

also i recognized that this somewhat is occurring in streaks. like some games in a row im just hitting everything, thinking the difficulty is too low.. hell i even went from all star with even sliders to hof with sliders favouring the cpu and didnt feel challenged there for a while after one of those streaks was over. now about 200 games later i'm back to all star and struggling there.
this is happening with pitching as well. i start the season with 10 games were my pitching is overly dominant, im getting swings and misses on mistake pitching and whenever the cpu is getting a hit the next 1 to 3 batters are easy outs.. then the next 20 games the cpu is hitting much better. pitches painting the corners and even out of the zone are being hit.

so my impression is that there is a code in the game that is creating losing/win streaks and that makes it seem like hitting and pitching are cold/hot for some periods of a season. however i havent experienced anything that make me feel that there is an actual comeback code.

Great post !!! yeah its coming down to the old debate most want sim but not at the cost of fun or interaction so wheres the balance ?
At one point alls I played was sports games all of them but now Im down to EA NHL and MLB the show which I probably wont buy next year .
Now I dont want to score 100 goals or hit 80 HRs but I wanna have fun like we used too , I mean if I want everything straight sim Ill play a cpu stat game but these are still video games no ? I remember when I couldnt stop playing games and now I dread them almost like trying to see how long I can last before I just turn if off as scripted type start showing up whether it favors me or the cpu , yuk .

So I guess what Im saying is instead of all this forced Momentum streak crud we have little control of how about real sliders and skill as a option and you can still get the randomness if you implement accurate attributes , real sliders and smart programming .
Who wants to play a game where your constantly given an a advantage or disadvantage all the time to force sim ?
How about just a even playing field as a option or at least put some BS odds on your chance of winning each game because Verlander is hot ect , or at least you know where you stand ?

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

Well, Schierholtz with a rating of 50 for speed beating out a slowly hit ground ball is one example. CPU fielders with poor fielding ratings consistently making amazing plays is another example. Medlen with a rating of 81 for home runs giving up home runs in every game is another example--on pitches not going where I wanted and control of 99!

would you buy that's just baseball ?

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

When it comes down to it, there has to be a balance between ratings and players skill. If outcomes were 100% ratings, we would probably see perfect stats but it wouldn't feel like we were playing. Now on the other end if it were 100% player input, you'd see players like Cabrera hitting .190.

I do play every pitch and I feel like it's a nice balance currently. Of course it can always be tweaked but it's not far off if you're on the right difficulty setting.

I feel in control but my input is appropriately impacted by the players ratings. It's easier to pitch well with an ace on the mound while I really have to focus and hit my marks when I'm pitching with a number 5 starter.

I totally agree with your post and its exactly how I feel as Im not trying to bash the game or the makers but when Im playing a WONDERFUL games win or lose and then that disconnected " Scripted Type Feeling " happens Nomo described so perfectly " As THAT feeling needs to be removed " !
Gosh I just wanna turn off the game when it starts up and maybe Nomo is right as SCEA has gotta see it but maybe they cant do anything else to better blend it ?
Man Im dying I havent played baseball in 3 months do to that feeling but at least my nails grew back and I have no frustration issues .

[geisterhome]

Re: Destined to lose?

in my franchise right now i'm playing against the nationals. i had a win streak of 6 going before i lost the last 2 games, I'm like 5 games over .500 and i feel right now i'm in one of those games which im not supposed to win. i'm abt to restart it for the 5th time now and so far i didn't manage to score a single run in any of my tries! i'm just not buying that my skills just regressed that dramatically since i was winning those 6 games in a row (all with a good amount of runs) just a few days ago and after trying it 5 times i also don't believe in just bad luck that my hard hit balls are line outs and that even though my timing is good a lot of times all i get a weak ground balls.

EDIT: now i actually ended up winning the game in my 6th try, feels like cheating now to be honest lol. was close, low scoring affair just as it was the first 5 times i played but in the end i managed to come up with the victory after an 8th inning 2 run rally.

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

Someone mentioned punishment and reward, and that's something I've felt for a long time. Now I know some may say I'm playing on Beginner Mode and there is a wide window, but while the window is bigger, there are times I foul off pitches and times I swing just early or just late and nothing. In fact, most times I swing just early or just late amount to nothing.

I was playing the Nationals and winning 11-0 with bases loaded in the ninth inning. Freddie Freeman is up at the plate. I don't need any more runs, so I tried something on purpose, swinging late, very late, but not a full swing. What I expected happened. Confirmation bias or punishment for swinging very late with bases loaded? I think punishment is the answer, but you can decide for yourselves. By the way, I have the full video showing swing in increments and the final result, a pop up that went fair!

The first two pictures show the ball before it reaches the bat.

[AC]

Re: Destined to lose?

Confirmation bias or punishment for swinging very late with bases loaded? I think punishment is the answer

It's confirmation bias, lol.


By the way, I hit 2 homers on pitches outside of the zone today.

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

It's confirmation bias, lol.


By the way, I hit 2 homers on pitches outside of the zone today.

Good for you! I have made good timing, not late or early on pitches outside the zone, but never a home run, not even on Beginner Mode.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Destined to lose?

How exactly would having ratings that don't matter make sense? Just wondering

It makes sense because it supports the conspiracy cause. Don't you know those ratings are just there for show? There's some dude in SCEA headquarters deciding the outcome of every play in this game. I thought everybody knew....

in my franchise right now i'm playing against the nationals. i had a win streak of 6 going before i lost the last 2 games, I'm like 5 games over .500 and i feel right now i'm in one of those games which im not supposed to win. i'm abt to restart it for the 5th time now and so far i didn't manage to score a single run in any of my tries! i'm just not buying that my skills just regressed that dramatically since i was winning those 6 games in a row (all with a good amount of runs) just a few days ago and after trying it 5 times i also don't believe in just bad luck that my hard hit balls are line outs and that even though my timing is good a lot of times all i get a weak ground balls.

EDIT: now i actually ended up winning the game in my 6th try, feels like cheating now to be honest lol. was close, low scoring affair just as it was the first 5 times i played but in the end i managed to come up with the victory after an 8th inning 2 run rally.

That because it is cheating...

Also, your *feeling* is worth zero points in the world of is this statistically significant or not?

The Nationals, huh? They have some good pitchers. Any chance you were facing Strasburg, Gio, or Zimm? lol

And about not believing "bad luck of hard hit balls that are line outs"...check out the stat called BABIP. Some players can carry bad/good luck for years, far more than a 10-game sample.

I swear from these posts, you'd really think some people never watched a single game of baseball in their lives before playing the Show. There's at least a couple of hot-hit smashes that go right at someone basically in EVERY SINGLE GAME!!!! So, yeah, believe it. Your skills are exactly the same, maybe a pinch better, as they were the game before that.

And drawing sweeping conclusions about the game from a 9 game sample, and then most of which you've replayed in frustration to undo being "cheated", really makes people that understand statistics want to cry.

Good for you! I have made good timing, not late or early on pitches outside the zone, but never a home run, not even on Beginner Mode.

OK, this is a new best. A statistical argument built on a single swing!!!!! .

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

Good for you! I have made good timing, not late or early on pitches outside the zone, but never a home run, not even on Beginner Mode.

? How about those who say " its just the randomness of baseball " and it goes both ways , win some lose some ?

But then I ask why ??? why so much fake or forced looking stuff that just doesnt add up with your mechanics on a swing or pitch ? and no its not comeback code but the mechanics are horrible compared to the outcomes at times like its overriding in sake of sim ( how it looks ) ?
I mean if the AI is randomly skewing possible outcomes both ways why not cut the BS programming and just let the gamer actually play a real role They can still make a exciting game with real sliders and player attributes without all the over programming or at least then just go straight sim off stats ! Jeez I'll take anything to lose that scripted feeling from this game .
Example : See this game isnt a true sim if you actually play the whole game and not sim , just look at all the blown closer saves stats in real life and then in SCEA game and SCEA is way overdone/ coded to be unstable for a reason !
and why ? One word built in Drama but when you play all pitches no sim its just ritualistic , tiresome and unrealistic which becomes boring and equals no fun game after game and if you dont wanna believe me look at the sales and even dwindling interest threads on MLB 13 because after 5 years of basically the same game play with tweaking each year to keep it unbalanced from the last and now some more visuals to make the gameplay seem more believable and thats it .

In closing I remember a SCEA member bragging years ago in a video " we want people when they see our game to think there watching a real baseball game " ! and that in fact is the real problem " WATCHING " when it should be " PLAYING "