Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

[stealyerface]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.



Take a look at the vertical movement, versus pitch speed, versus swinging strikes.

Interestingly enough, Brandon Workman, against the Mariners the other night, had a high propensity of swinging strikes, and along with the swinging strikes, the number of balls swung at and missed, also showed that the higher in the strike zone the ball was thrown, the faster the pitch, and the more apt the batters were to miss when attempting a swing.

Kind of what we are talking about.
~syf

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Take a look at the vertical movement, versus pitch speed, versus swinging strikes.

Interestingly enough, Brandon Workman, against the Mariners the other night, had a high propensity of swinging strikes, and along with the swinging strikes, the number of balls swung at and missed, also showed that the higher in the strike zone the ball was thrown, the faster the pitch, and the more apt the batters were to miss when attempting a swing.

Kind of what we are talking about.
~syf

But that shows all pitches, not just fastballs. Thus it's greatly skewed by the fact that MLB pitchers heavily favor throwing breaking balls low in the zone, and heavily favor throwing fastballs high in the zone.

[stealyerface]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.



Good point... take a look at the 4-seamers in his repertoire... 6mph swing in just 7 inches of vertical distance...

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Neither related nor a response to the post directly above mine...

But another skewing fact is that as a pitcher fatigues, two things happen:

1) velocity decreases
2) The release angle drops. When the muscles in your arm are tired, it is harder to keep them extended.

So basically the more tired you are, your pitches naturally fall towards the center of the zone, and it's harder to stay high or above the zone.

This could be another factor in the myth that there is causation between how high a pitch is and its velocity.

[stealyerface]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I guess I am bowing out of the conversation because I either don't get the question, or I am too dense to get the point across, and I am certainly not giving out pitching advice.

If the User is employing the Meter style of pitching, and is hopeful that a 4 seam fastball, released at the same exact release point, and at the same exact meter distance, should be the same exact speed for that pitch, every time it is thrown, then, yes... it appears there is something wrong with the coding and it is brokon.

Were this to be the case, I would suspect we would see threads such as:

"Why are all my 4 seam fast ball the same exact speed?, that is unrealistic".

I, for one, like the fact that whether it is user controlled (Pure Analog) or controlled buy the pitcher's stats and his trends (Pulse Pitching) that there is some disparity between the pitch speeds, as there are some extenuating circumstances, not withstanding the excellent examples listed in the post above mine, but not limited to the fact that the "snap" from the fingers on the ball, wind gusts within the field, fatigue, arm slots, spin, effort, location, elevation, temperature, etc... all play a role in speed of pitches, and some listed can be from pitch to pitch.

So, the next time I watch a game, and all of Justin Verlander's 4-seamers are the same exact speed, regardless of their location, I will concede that they messed up the game.

BUt when I see his 4-seamers go from 92-98 and the majority of his faster pitches at a greater height than the slower ones, I have to tip my cap to the designers in capturing the nuances of pitching

~syf

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I guess I am bowing out of the conversation because I either don't get the question, or I am too dense to get the point across, and I am certainly not giving out pitching advice.

If the User is employing the Meter style of pitching, and is hopeful that a 4 seam fastball, released at the same exact release point, and at the same exact meter distance, should be the same exact speed for that pitch, every time it is thrown, then, yes... it appears there is something wrong with the coding and it is brokon.

Were this to be the case, I would suspect we would see threads such as:

"Why are all my 4 seam fast ball the same exact speed?, that is unrealistic".

I, for one, like the fact that whether it is user controlled (Pure Analog) or controlled buy the pitcher's stats and his trends (Pulse Pitching) that there is some disparity between the pitch speeds, as there are some extenuating circumstances, not withstanding the excellent examples listed in the post above mine, but not limited to the fact that the "snap" from the fingers on the ball, wind gusts within the field, fatigue, arm slots, spin, effort, location, elevation, temperature, etc... all play a role in speed of pitches, and some listed can be from pitch to pitch.

So, the next time I watch a game, and all of Justin Verlander's 4-seamers are the same exact speed, regardless of their location, I will concede that they messed up the game.

BUt when I see his 4-seamers go from 92-98 and the majority of his faster pitches at a greater height than the slower ones, I have to tip my cap to the designers in capturing the nuances of pitching

~syf

But you said yourself the higher pitches are faster because the pitcher wants it that way.

We already have a system in place that allows for varying pitch speeds, by varying the effort.

The question is not why high pitches tend to be faster, but why high pitches are forcibly faster, which is where the incorrectness lies.

I'd be fine with some sort of tendency that drove the CPU to put more effort into high fastballs than into low ones.

But the fact that I put minimum effort into two pitches, one high, and one low, and there is a significant difference in pitch speed...

Or the fact that I put maximum effort into two pitches, and only one is able to reach a truly maximum speed... That there is absolutely no way to reach a pitcher's maximum speed except by aiming high in the zone...

That needs to be changed, for sure.

And even if I acknowledged there were a concrete relationship between velocity and pitch height, I'm 100% sure that such a relationship works in the opposite direction.

It shouldn't be that high pitches magically travel faster.
It should be that faster pitches naturally end up in the upper part of the zone, because the higher velocity results in less break, less sink, etc...

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Perhaps the pitch speed should respond accordingly to the "effort" that the pitcher puts into one, rather than the game giving it an automatic boost of +/- 2 mph or so based on the pitch height.

This should be the case.

A pitcher throws harder up in the zone because they know they have to and it is more prone to being hit hard and far if they don't, especially if they leave that pitch more in the middle. So of course charts will show that. Plus power pitchers generally have a hard curve, so a high fastball complements that. I am not arguing that fact or asking when and why a high fastball should be thrown.

Sure the ball may get there sooner (if that is even true I don't know) for overhand pitchers, but I'd think that also depends on what side of the mound you are on. And as I mentioned above, pitchers with longer arms and longer strides will have their balls get there faster as well. This doesn't increase the pitch speed though.

Plus on the pitch chart, you see these balls are out of the zone. If you play user vs user and even vs cpu, you can live by pitching high in the strike zone, which to me isn't entirely realistic.

I think this game does a good job with adding altitude affects. If you play at Coors you generally throw 1-2 mph harder, but they definitely exaggerate with the high/low fastballs just magically going up in mph.

I use meter btw, so I am not sure why a few kept asking that. I should be able to control how hard I want to throw and it is annoying when you try to pitch inside and always having to pitch high and in to achieve your maximum velocity.

[Taffin]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Perhaps the pitch speed should respond accordingly to the "effort" that the pitcher puts into one, rather than the game giving it an automatic boost of +/- 2 mph or so based on the pitch height.

This should be the case.

Actually, two fastballs released with the same effort, one high and one low, will show two different speeds. The higher pitch will show the higher speed, but this is because of how radar works, not because one pitch is actually faster than the other.

In order for radar to get the most accurate reading, the target (ball) must be moving directly towards the radar gun. The further offline it gets, the slower the indicated speed. Since in baseball the radar guns are positioned towards the top of the strike zone, the higher pitches come closer to showing their true speed, while the lower pitches show lower.

[Tweeg]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to say that I agree with the OP.

Velocity should be relatively the same regardless of location. Sure, as a hitter the high and in fastball 'gets on you' faster, but it's not because it was thrown any harder.

[Greencollarbaseball]

When a fastball is thrown high it has less friction applied to it because it is released earlier so your fingers are more behind the ball, so it has more velocity. When the ball is released later your fingers are more on top which leads to more friction and slower velocity. That's also why a change-up is slower than a fastball, the ball is deeper in the hand which adds a lot more friction. So even with the same arm speed the change is 8-10 mph slower.
It's not magic, it's physics.

[Beastin]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Just from playing baseball all my life and also having pitched in the upper levels of baseball i have to disagree with OP, for one simple non technical reason. If i'm pitching and i think to myself i'm gonna reach back for all i have this one pitch and blow it by this guy, that pitch is more likely to be up in the zone (for me at least). Compared to when i pitch in the limits i know i have hitting your spots and keeping the ball low is very achievable. It is none too easy to pitch a ball 2-3 mph faster than what you have in the strike zone. The game isn't rewarding you for throwing the ball high.....keep it up and you will give up more homers than most. No matter the velocity of a fastball a big league hitter, if sitting dead read on it, will crush them up in the zone. This just may be my experience from pitching and not be the status quo however i just thought i would add my thoughts to the conversation.

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Just from playing baseball all my life and also having pitched in the upper levels of baseball i have to disagree with OP, for one simple non technical reason. If i'm pitching and i think to myself i'm gonna reach back for all i have this one pitch and blow it by this guy, that pitch is more likely to be up in the zone (for me at least). Compared to when i pitch in the limits i know i have hitting your spots and keeping the ball low is very achievable. It is none too easy to pitch a ball 2-3 mph faster than what you have in the strike zone. The game isn't rewarding you for throwing the ball high.....keep it up and you will give up more homers than most. No matter the velocity of a fastball a big league hitter, if sitting dead read on it, will crush them up in the zone. This just may be my experience from pitching and not be the status quo however i just thought i would add my thoughts to the conversation.

Right but that's still contradictory to how it works in The Show. There's a difference between a pitch being faster because you aimed it high, and a pitch going high because you intended to throw it faster. Therein lies the problem.

[nomo17k]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Actually, two fastballs released with the same effort, one high and one low, will show two different speeds. The higher pitch will show the higher speed, but this is because of how radar works, not because one pitch is actually faster than the other.

In order for radar to get the most accurate reading, the target (ball) must be moving directly towards the radar gun. The further offline it gets, the slower the indicated speed. Since in baseball the radar guns are positioned towards the top of the strike zone, the higher pitches come closer to showing their true speed, while the lower pitches show lower.

This was definitely true in the past (because the radar gun was only capable of measuring the pitch velocity component directed toward it via Doppler effect), but with PITCHf/x trajectory measurements the velocity can be recovered fully, in principle.

In the game, I head from a dev that what's displayed is the initial speed of the pitch. I didn't explicitly ask if it's only the component parallel to the ground, but I doubt the difference in release angle alone leads to that much of speed difference of order 1 mph or so.

In some sense, the displayed mph numbers are cosmetic, and the substance is more in how there is some timing difference that seems to be coded in with swing timing... like how you have to swing earlier to catch up to the fastball up in the zone. I'm more concerned if that difference is close to physically realistic numbers, or adjusted in such a way to exaggerate the effect to simulate how we react differently to high and low pitches.

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

In some sense, the displayed mph numbers are cosmetic, and the substance is more in how there is some timing difference that seems to be coded in with swing timing... like how you have to swing earlier to catch up to the fastball up in the zone. I'm more concerned if that difference is close to physically realistic numbers, or adjusted in such a way to exaggerate the effect to simulate how we react differently to high and low pitches.

Excellent point. I hadn't thought about this. That could definitely be factoring into the displeasure with the phenomenon.

[Beastin]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Right but that's still contradictory to how it works in The Show. There's a difference between a pitch being faster because you aimed it high, and a pitch going high because you intended to throw it faster. Therein lies the problem.

I agree, however also when you release a pitch earlier, its bound to go faster, than a normal release point or a latter on. but i guess my post didn't exactly go hand in hand with this thread