CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

[barsoffury]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

What I wouldn't mind seeing once in a while are brutal ball and strike calls. We see them every game in real life a couple times. I know we already get those borderline ones (like a hair outside or inside and batter shakes his head) but I'm talking way out of the strike zone being called strikes and vice versa.

[nomo17k]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

What I wouldn't mind seeing once in a while are brutal ball and strike calls. We see them every game in real life a couple times. I know we already get those borderline ones (like a hair outside or inside and batter shakes his head) but I'm talking way out of the strike zone being called strikes and vice versa.

This isn't really related to the CPU discipline issue though. If you don't like the variable strike/ball calls, you can turn it off in the gamplay setting.

[RandyBass]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

Overall, the CPU chases more pitches...

Pitches in the dirt too???

Would be nice to see a broader range in this area, especially with guys who are know to hack away.

[MrOldboy]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

I do agree that the occurrence of strikeout overall is realistic, but I think what comes out of people's overall impression in a thread like this in the past is that strikeouts in the game happen more within the strike zone than outside than you would expect in real life. CPU often takes or just swings through a fastball for the third strike. I agree with that impression as well.

I think what should happen is that CPU should chase more when it's taken out the zone, so that he does not have to go down on pitches within the strike zone to keep the overall strikeout rate balanced.

Exactly. I feel like this point needs to be driven home. Its not the strikeout rate that needs work, its how those at bats end up in a strike out.

Broadly, more chasing pitches (especially in the dirt), but that also means less swings and misses at strikes to keep it balanced. I remember the discussion before and you were saying that strike out rates were not that far off from real MLB stats.

[tessl]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

I'm talking from my experience running CPU vs. CPU games, which is essentially the same as games in MoM, so no user input there. I'm only agreeing with the impressions from people using their own stick skills, because I'm seeing the same thing in both.

The problem is "fixing" one thing and not impacting something else negatively. If the cpu has less of an idea about pitch location that sounds like more called third strikes with risp and 2 out and that was more of a problem for me than hitters not swinging at balls in the dirt. For every 100 pitches in the dirt I doubt a MLB batter swings at more than 1 or 2. They wouldn't last long in the majors if they swung at bad pitches all the time. Most of the time when they swing and miss it is a ball in or very close to the strike zone, a lot of times they are guessing and get a pitch they aren't looking for.

I don't know what MLB team people are watching where batters are constantly swinging at lousy pitches.

[Bobhead]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

For every 100 pitches in the dirt I doubt a MLB batter swings at more than 1 or 2. They wouldn't last long in the majors if they swung at bad pitches all the time. Most of the time when they swing and miss it is a ball in or very close to the strike zone, a lot of times they are guessing and get a pitch they aren't looking for.

I don't know what MLB team people are watching where batters are constantly swinging at lousy pitches.

What you think and doubt is irrelevant. There's already a ton of stats readily available. Some of those stats show that batters chase pitches quite often - around a 1/3rd of the time, if you're wondering. That part isn't really a matter of opinion.

[nomo17k]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

The problem is "fixing" one thing and not impacting something else negatively. If the cpu has less of an idea about pitch location that sounds like more called third strikes with risp and 2 out and that was more of a problem for me than hitters not swinging at balls in the dirt. For every 100 pitches in the dirt I doubt a MLB batter swings at more than 1 or 2. They wouldn't last long in the majors if they swung at bad pitches all the time. Most of the time when they swing and miss it is a ball in or very close to the strike zone, a lot of times they are guessing and get a pitch they aren't looking for.

I don't know what MLB team people are watching where batters are constantly swinging at lousy pitches.

As Bobhead said, we are saying all these things partly because there are enough evidence that CPU does not chase enough. We have pitch f/x and fangraphs these days, so we no longer really have to go solely by impression any more. We just need to be compare numbers from the game and from the real life. Brian was actually aware of CPU not chasing enough, when I had an opportunity to talk to him directly just over a year ago at the CD event.

There's nothing wrong with giving constructive feedback.

[tessl]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

What I wouldn't mind seeing once in a while are brutal ball and strike calls. We see them every game in real life a couple times. I know we already get those borderline ones (like a hair outside or inside and batter shakes his head) but I'm talking way out of the strike zone being called strikes and vice versa.

Maybe they should have an arcade mode where all this goofy stuff happens. You could have 40 strikeouts a game, players seated atop mules, incredibly stupid umpires, etc.

[decga]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

I have had more than 2 CPU batters chased pitches in the dirt in 13'. My sliders are not at default, so you has the pitcher can make it happen by being ahead in the count.

[tessl]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

As Bobhead said, we are saying all these things partly because there are enough evidence that CPU does not chase enough. We have pitch f/x and fangraphs these days, so we no longer really have to go solely by impression any more. We just need to be compare numbers from the game and from the real life. Brian was actually aware of CPU not chasing enough, when I had an opportunity to talk to him directly just over a year ago at the CD event.

There's nothing wrong with giving constructive feedback.

Not chasing enough in what mode and with what sliders?

My experience playing - not simming - hundreds of games in manage mode - no human input - on default sliders was very accurate strikeout totals.

The developer I learn the most from in this game is Brian when he posts information and I trust him not to do anything too drastic to the game. It would be frustrating to see manage mode take a step backward to placate joystick players who want to strike out batters without having to throw the ball over the plate. A lot of people aren't interested in realism, they simply want to win.

[Bobhead]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

Not chasing enough in what mode and with what sliders?

My experience playing - not simming - hundreds of games in manage mode - no human input - on default sliders was very accurate strikeout totals.

The developer I learn the most from in this game is Brian when he posts information and I trust him not to do anything too drastic to the game. It would be frustrating to see manage mode take a step backward to placate joystick players who want to strike out batters without having to throw the ball over the plate. A lot of people aren't interested in realism, they simply want to win.

No one is even questioning strikeout totals. The post that you quoted had no mention of them. We are talking about chase rates. The strikeout totals in this game are pretty accurate, but that doesn't mean the AI is achieving them in a realistic manner. The end does not justify the means. Those realistic strikeout rates are being complimented by unnatural strike percentages, diminished chase rates, and other such oddities.

[nomo17k]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

Not chasing enough in what mode and with what sliders?

My experience playing - not simming - hundreds of games in manage mode - no human input - on default sliders was very accurate strikeout totals.

The developer I learn the most from in this game is Brian when he posts information and I trust him not to do anything too drastic to the game. It would be frustrating to see manage mode take a step backward to placate joystick players who want to strike out batters without having to throw the ball over the plate. A lot of people aren't interested in realism, they simply want to win.

If you are curious, you can click on "CPU vs. CPU games" link in my signature and see them for yourself. Games are all played out by CPU in season mode. I vary sliders but always do a set of about 75 games at default sliders. The column BA (O-Swing %) is the chase %, the first two rows are the MLB ave in blue and measured in black.

I understand you only seem to care about what Brian says, but he and you are not the only participants here, and other people are also here for sharing conversations. Knowing that the developers are partly here to gather feedback, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having constructive feedback.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

Not chasing enough in what mode and with what sliders?

My experience playing - not simming - hundreds of games in manage mode - no human input - on default sliders was very accurate strikeout totals.

The developer I learn the most from in this game is Brian when he posts information and I trust him not to do anything too drastic to the game. It would be frustrating to see manage mode take a step backward to placate joystick players who want to strike out batters without having to throw the ball over the plate. A lot of people aren't interested in realism, they simply want to win.

Brian tunes and tests the game using CPU vs. CPU games.

We spoke at length about this at last year's CD event. Although some concessions need to be made to accommodate the 'player,' having a statistically realistic game of baseball between the AI is and always will be a priority to the Development team.

You can see this proven with CPU vs. CPU averages over the years. Every new iteration leads to more realistic internal results.

I expect this year to be no different.

[Qb]

This is a verbal warning, tessl.

I wouldn't want to see manage mode turn into a strikeout fest just to appease joystickers who can't get the cpu to chase more pitches...

My concern is in order to appease users joysticking the game who want to strike out 15 cpu batters per game the game it could cause manage mode to become strikeout fest.

I don't know what MLB team people are watching where batters are constantly swinging at lousy pitches.

Maybe they should have an arcade mode where all this goofy stuff happens. You could have 40 strikeouts a game, players seated atop mules, incredibly stupid umpires, etc.

It would be frustrating to see manage mode take a step backward to placate joystick players who want to strike out batters without having to throw the ball over the plate. A lot of people aren't interested in realism, they simply want to win.

Feel free to express your concerns, but please drop the condescending tone and comments. Furthermore, the conversation could do without your strawman arguments about people wanting excessive or easily achieved strikeout totals. It seems clear to me those participating in this discussion want strikeouts to happen in both a realistic manner and frequency.

[BrianU]

Re: CPU plate discipline logic has been re-written

Bobhead and nomo do a tremendous unbiased job of seeing how the game engine performs and I look forward to seeing how their results for this years game compares to last year, assuming they continue their efforts.