OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

[Joey]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Maybe the computer drafts according to career WAR....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...l?mobile=false

Big Train, yeah, I agree with, but Koufax and Gibson are clearly better than Gaylord Perry, Warren Spahn, Tim Keefe, Pedro Martinez, Eddie Plank, John Clarkson, Steve Carlton, Pud Galviin, Fergie Jenkins, Nolan Ryan, Robin Roberts and Bob Feller. I am not saying any of those guys are slouches (especially Spahn, Carlton and Ryan), but of that entire list I think Gibson, Koufax, Young and Johnson are the best ever. It just seemed odd to see 3 of the 4 in your rotation.

Anyway, you'd better win a rotation like that. As far as Cleon vs. Lou, 118 SB's says it all to me.

[Sunjah]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Maybe the computer drafts according to career WAR....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...l?mobile=false

Yeah, good point. Myself, I am not too big a fan of WAR (have not fully researched it, but from what I know...kind of iffy stat to me).

I did find Sandy Koufax as 72 on that list, and I have heard many big league announcers tout Koufax as possibly the best pitcher ever (apparently after he discovered his curveball). I did not watch him, so I don't really know, and I wonder if the fact that he only played 13 years has an effect on that WAR rating. 72 just seems way too low, which again, makes me wonder about that stat.

Best pitcher I ever watched was Greg Maddux from 1993-1999 (and the Sports Illustrated turn of the century baseball magazine had an incredible article that showed those 7 years versus any other pitcher in history for 7 years, and Maddux blew them away by far...Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax...none of them were even close. Thing is, Maddux lost a lot from 2000 on, but I think for those 7 years, he was the best pitcher ever to pitch), and Dwight Gooden in 1985. It's hard to believe, though, that a cpu would pass up on 2 of the 3 of Koufax, Young and Gibson 29 times in 3 rounds. Maybe it was the stats...or probably was, but I don't see how you could get a better staff than Young, Gibson and Koufax. Close, yes, equal, maybe, but I don't think you could do better. That was the first thing I thought when I saw all 3 on one staff in the same draft.

Who knows...but that staff better win, especially with Willie Mays in the lineup, too. The Rockies are the new Yankees...in that "baseball world" anyway!

I love baseball!

[Sunjah]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

... http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video...st-mlb-players...

Honestly, was it ever any doubt who would be number 1? I know in my book there was 100% no doubt, best ever unquestionably. I also agree with #2, but then the next guy should be much lower. I agree he was very good, but there is no doubt that he would have achieved virtually none of those without help. Not revving up the debate, but he does not deserve #3. #50 maybe...maybe. I would also rate Clemens lower than his 8 or what ever he was. Yes, excellent player, but top 30 at best. Only reason his career went as long (by about 10 years) was the same cheating #3 did. I think both can fit in the Hall, but clearly they would not have done what they did without help.

Good list, though I might debate Gehrig should be higher. This was the guy hitting cleanup on a team that had Babe Ruth. That is pretty incredible. My favorite of all-time, which is saying something, considering I kind of deplore the Yankees.

[hoser]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Yeah, good point. Myself, I am not too big a fan of WAR (have not fully researched it, but from what I know...kind of iffy stat to me).

I did find Sandy Koufax as 72 on that list, and I have heard many big league announcers tout Koufax as possibly the best pitcher ever (apparently after he discovered his curveball). I did not watch him, so I don't really know, and I wonder if the fact that he only played 13 years has an effect on that WAR rating. 72 just seems way too low, which again, makes me wonder about that stat.

Best pitcher I ever watched was Greg Maddux from 1993-1999 (and the Sports Illustrated turn of the century baseball magazine had an incredible article that showed those 7 years versus any other pitcher in history for 7 years, and Maddux blew them away by far...Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax...none of them were even close. Thing is, Maddux lost a lot from 2000 on, but I think for those 7 years, he was the best pitcher ever to pitch), and Dwight Gooden in 1985. It's hard to believe, though, that a cpu would pass up on 2 of the 3 of Koufax, Young and Gibson 29 times in 3 rounds. Maybe it was the stats...or probably was, but I don't see how you could get a better staff than Young, Gibson and Koufax. Close, yes, equal, maybe, but I don't think you could do better. That was the first thing I thought when I saw all 3 on one staff in the same draft.

Who knows...but that staff better win, especially with Willie Mays in the lineup, too. The Rockies are the new Yankees...in that "baseball world" anyway!

I love baseball!

I saw Koufax pitch in person in the 65 world series and he was awesome at that time. For a couple years he was the best active pitcher in baseball.

However, when you stack him up against all the others pitchers to ever pitch you'll find that other pitchers had longer careers, more career wins, more wins in a single season, higher career WAR, better career WHIP, better single season WHIP, etc, etc, etc. It's fairly easy to argue he wasn't the best ever. In fact, if you look at the numbers you'll find Koufax isn't ranked in the top 10 of all time pitchers in many, many categories.

Here's some of the rankings for Koufax when compared to the top pitchers of all time:

Career WAR = 79th
Single season WAR = 67th
Career wins = 203rd
Single season wins = 201st
Career WHIP = 23rd
Single season WHIP = 17th
Career Ks = 40th
Single season Ks = 9th
Career ERA = 94th
Single season ERA = 100th

Koufax may have been the best in the game for a given year or two or three but when you stack him up against the top pitchers of all time his numbers don't quite stack up.

The roster I'm using contains the greatest players of all time. The attributes are a reflection of each player and how they rank all time. Given that, it's easy to see how the CPU passed on Koufax for a few rounds.

You also have to take into account the draft isn't just about starting pitching. The CPU, and I, also have to draft closers, center fielders, shortstops, catchers, etc, etc, etc. I didn't even choose Koufax in the 1st round. I went with Willie Mays because I felt a center fielder with range, a great arm, who can hit for average and power and steal some bases on an every day basis was more valuable than a starting pitcher that plays every five games. After Mays was picked I loaded up on starting pitching which is why I ended up with the staff that I have but there's a crap load of great players to choose from when looking at the all time greatest players ever.

For a four year stretch Sandy Koufax was unbelievably good. Up there with some of the greatest of all time. But to say he's one of the top three pitchers of all time, given his total body of work, is not giving enough credit to those that came before him or after him.

[lhslancers]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Honestly, was it ever any doubt who would be number 1? I know in my book there was 100% no doubt, best ever unquestionably. I also agree with #2, but then the next guy should be much lower. I agree he was very good, but there is no doubt that he would have achieved virtually none of those without help. Not revving up the debate, but he does not deserve #3. #50 maybe...maybe. I would also rate Clemens lower than his 8 or what ever he was. Yes, excellent player, but top 30 at best. Only reason his career went as long (by about 10 years) was the same cheating #3 did. I think both can fit in the Hall, but clearly they would not have done what they did without help.

Good list, though I might debate Gehrig should be higher. This was the guy hitting cleanup on a team that had Babe Ruth. That is pretty incredible. My favorite of all-time, which is saying something, considering I kind of deplore the Yankees.

Lots of very good players on that list but as far as rankings go I shake my head on some of them. How can Gehrig be rated out of the top 5?

Best pitchers since 1960 in their best half decade IMO are Koufax Gibson Clemens Seaver and Martinez.

[hoser]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Lots of very good players on that list but as far as rankings go I shake my head on some of them. How can Gehrig be rated out of the top 5?

Best pitchers since 1960 in their best half decade IMO are Koufax Gibson Clemens Seaver and Martinez.

No Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson or Jim Palmer?

Randy Johnson won five Cy Young awards including at least one in each league while striking out batters at a remarkable rate. Greg Maddux won the Cy Young four years in a row and racked up 355 wins. Steve Carlton won four Cy Young awards and was dominating in his own right.

My point in bringing these guys up isn't to argue which one is better but to illustrate that it's not a slam dunk who was the best pitcher since 1960 let alone of all time. And these are just a few of the top starting pitchers since 1960. Arguments can be made for dozens upon dozens of pitchers as the top handful of starting pitchers of all time.

Throw in all the closers, catchers, first basemen, second basemen, third basemen, shortstops and outfielders of all time and it's easy to see that there are literally hundreds of players that are worthy of being picked in the first few rounds of a fantasy draft of all time players.

[hoser]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Jay Jaffe put together a list of the top pitchers of all time based on their career WAR averaged with their 7-year peak WAR. The results are quite interesting and shows W Johnson, C Young, Clemens, Nichols, Alexander, Mathewson, Seaver, Grove, Maddux and R Johnson as the top 10 pitchers of all time.

Gibson was 13 and Koufax was 82. Koufax is likely rated lower in this statistical analysis because while he had a few unbelievably greats years in a row he couldn't sustain it for a long enough period of time.

Here's the web site where you can find the results.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

[bostongahden]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

I recently did a fantasy draft with my 40MAN All Time Greats roster and it actually turned out to be a helluva lot of fun. At first I was concerned about having Willie Mays on the Rockies but it was a lot more fun than I thought it would be.

Here's who I ended up drafting and putting on my 25 man roster:

1B - Hank Greenberg
2B - Davey Lopes
3B - Brooks Robinson
SS - Ernie Banks
RF - Darryl Strawberry
CF - Willie Mays
LF - Cleon Jones
C - Mickey Cochrane
SP - Bob Gibson
SP - Sandy Koufax
SP - Cy Young
SP - Randy Johnson
SP - Johnny Podres
SP - Johnny Antonelli
SP - Dick Bosman
RP - Satchel Paige
RP - John Hiller
RP - Jeff Reardon
RP - Bob Stanley
CL - Dennis Eckersley
C/1B - Gene Tenace
SS/OF - Shawn Dunston
3B - Bonny Bonilla
OF - Fred Lynn
OF - Lou Brock

I won the NL West by 10+ games and am in the first round of the playoffs.

It's pretty interesting to combine the really old time players like Cy Young with the golden era players like Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax along with the relatively newer players like Dennis Eckersley and Randy Johnson on the same pitching staff.

Also, having a lineup of Banks, Lopes, Mays, Strawberry, Greenberg, Conchrane, Jones and Robinson is fun as hell to play with. It ain't bad having Lynn, Bonilla, Dunston, Brock and Tenace come off the bench in the late innings to get a clutch pinch hit too.

The historic rosters provide an almost endless set of scenarios to have fun with and hours upon hours of entertainment. I'm already laying out the historic players and their attributes for MLB The Show 13's 40 MAN All Time Roster set.

WOW! I'd love to see these rosters for MLB 13. God bless you! Having a ball with pjsnell's et al efforts and will hang onto MLB 12 for that reason but I'll definitely be getting MLB 13. Are your 40 rosters in the vault?

[Bahnzo]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Been having some fun with these the last couple weeks. Just wanted to say thumbs up and good job.

[hoser]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

WOW! I'd love to see these rosters for MLB 13. God bless you! Having a ball with pjsnell's et al efforts and will hang onto MLB 12 for that reason but I'll definitely be getting MLB 13. Are your 40 rosters in the vault?

Yes, I think they are called 40MAN All Time Greats under the user name biebig2010. I'd grab the most recent version which is July 29 or something like that.

I am in the process of adding a hundred or more all time greats to round out this roster and have tweaked a lot of player's attributes in the last few months but the final installment of this roster won't be uploaded for a few weeks.

I'm definitely planning on doing a 40MAN All Time greats roster for MLB The Show 13 and am getting all the research done now.

[pjsnell10]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

WOW! I'd love to see these rosters for MLB 13. God bless you! Having a ball with pjsnell's et al efforts and will hang onto MLB 12 for that reason but I'll definitely be getting MLB 13. Are your 40 rosters in the vault?

I really wish that we could export rosters from year to year. It would save so much time. I was thinking about doing a roster of the 1961 season for MLB '13, but I've got two kids under 3 now, so my free time is vanishing.

[bostongahden]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

I really wish that we could export rosters from year to year. It would save so much time. I was thinking about doing a roster of the 1961 season for MLB '13, but I've got two kids under 3 now, so my free time is vanishing.

I hear that! I have three kids of my own and try to squeeze 3-4 games in a week (if I'm lucky). They are older which presents the problem of getting the console and TV to play the games. I'm having a blast playing a season with my all-time Sox.The scope of the work with these rosters is tremendous. As I said earlier, I'll hang onto MLB 12 because of it

[nastyn8]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

Hi guys, I just got MLB 12 (been playing 11 for a while haha), and these rosters sound awesome. However, since I got this game used I cannot go online to download them. (Broke college kid not willing to pay $10 to go online one time) Usually for most game there is a 2 day free trail for online, but I cannot find that anywhere.

Would somebody be able to upload this save online so I can download it and use it on my PS3? I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you

[Sunjah]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

...WAR...

I think it is a "bad" stat, and have trouble basing any baseball decisions on it.

[Sunjah]

Re: OS All-Time Classic Roster (The Show '12)

This is the baseball reference definition on WAR:

How to Use WAR

The idea behind the WAR framework is that we want to know how much better a player is than what a team would typically have to replace that player. We start by comparing the player to average in a variety of venues and then compare our theoretical replacement player to the average player and add the two results together.

It is a totally bogus "imaginary" stat in my opinion, and almost every statement you have said quotes WAR first. (c'mon; it is based on an 'imaginary' player that you compare to the real player, and base everything off of that comparison?...I think it is the most silly thing I have ever seen in regards to 40+ years of personal baseball fandom)

I know you said you don't want to argue, but every response since I said anything has been very "defensive" of your stance.

I was just talking baseball. Agree, don't agree; it makes no difference to me.

I do know that when I saw those 3 pitchers listed on a 30-team draft, I thought, "That is ridiculous, something weird happened to have those 3 together on a staff right after a draft."