pitch consistency and pitch control need help

[Bobhead]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Jack, let us say, hypothetically speaking, that I turned my Fielding Errors Slider all the way up to 10. Then, I proceeded to play 100 games, and observed a significantly higher-than-normal Walk total within those games. Would it not be fair for me to assume then, that my increased walk totals are as a result of me increasing the Fielding Errors Slider? What if I then proceeded to post countless pictures and videos demonstrating my varied pitch histories, increased walk totals, and whatever else? Through an extension of the logic you are using, I could state that the Fielding Errors Slider clearly has a tremendous effect on strikes, balls, and walks, yet I think we can both safely state that this is certainly not the case. Does this make sense to you?

I cannnot say you are definitely wrong. In theory, it is possible you are right. However I can say that your logic is definitely invalid. Just because both A and B are true does not mean there is correlation between the two.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Nomo, CHD, ParisB, Bobhead and myself all claim to be seeing more walks per game than Jack Burton. Isn't this enough evidence in itself?

Obviously, Nomo largely plays CPU games, and ParisB likes AS level, and CHD and myself play on HOF...

But across the board, ALL OF US, are seeing more BB/9 than him. In fact, all of us claim to be over 3.0.

Is it possible that Jack simply chases more than we do (playing on Legend all)? Sure! That's why chased percentages would be helpful. Where are they? If I was making these claims...claims that RAISING pitcher accuracy INCREASES BB/9...I'd be damn prepared to show it. Not because I'm right or wrong, but because the masses may have good reason to feel the logic to be counterintuitive. I mean, raising pitcher sliders to increase BB is quite a claim, regardless of what the sliders did or did not do in the past.

Where are the game stats, Jack? My 11 inning affair the other night is hardly worth anything by itself. Or, how about the game where Pavano didn't walk me? Are BB non-existent? Well...NO!! Because that doesn't factor in the 7 BB DET allowed me the night prior. Let alone the 15 games previous.

I track all the major stuff (H, 2B, HR, SO, etc)...But I also, and ALWAYS, track strike percentage, early strike percentage, user chases, fouls, misses and total innings pitched.

I've got an abundance of numbers...and MY opinion doesn't go against the grain like Jack's. You'd think he'd have even more incentive to prove us wrong...because Heck, we might be.

WHERE are the stats?!?!?!

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

In the box score, there are total of 7 walks. For a 17 inning game, that's low isn't it? You say "it's just one game"? Then we need more games to average over...

That's my argument for racking up more data on walks...


Honestly, it's hard for me to interpret the charts without anything to compare with. Even with something to compare with, it will be hard for me. That I said earlier. The reason why I think it will be hard is that pitchers are still quite wild even at the BB/9, pitch controls ratings, the pitch control and consistency all maxed out. I attach an example pitch chart for a pitcher with maxed out rating and those sliders maxed out. Each pitch I aimed down the middle with the classic pitching interface. Still see quite some wildness! If I get this much wildness with the best control pitcher with juiced slider set, what should I expect from pitchers "nibbling the corners"? I say hard to interpret.

And you provided with us the long term average, which is just over 2 BB per game. Does this mean your sliders helped you increase the number of walks? Could be, if you were drawing 0.5 BB per game with a default set on average. But who knows what your average was at default? In order to claim something really has an effect, you need some baseline. Otherwise who know all you see may be a placebo effect, you know.

You shouldn't look at how many walks the CPU got off me as I'm using analog pitching and I'm good at it, I don't give up many walks. One of those walks was an intentional walk. I love the analog pitching even though my walk numbers are down, which is why I buffed up the CPU's batting.

I'm not sure if the CPU is using classic pitching although it would make sense. I only say that because if you check the CPU's pitch analysis when you don't swing, it says if their release was early, normal, or late. However, when you use classic pitching, the pitch analysis doesn't say anything.

I just care that my sliders provide a good ball/strike ratio with realistic walk numbers so I guess instead of saying raising control/consistency can result in more walks, I should just say you can get realistic ball/strike ratio with good walks as well as I'm not going to play games on default (because I didn't like default due to the wild pitches) to generate stats to make a comparison. I really feel I can draw realistic walk numbers. My 29 game season walk numbers would've looked better if you viewed them as walks per AB (or plate appearance) instead of just a per game ratio just because I had the lowest or 2nd lowest ABs in the league, which is a factor. I doubt the walk numbers would've looked perfect but definitely not quite as low as they seemed.

WHERE are the stats?!?!?!

I'm not a huge stat guy like you guys are. If I feel the CPU is offering up walks at a realistic pace with averaging 2-3 walks a game along with having games with 5+ walks thrown in, I'm cool with that. I'm not cool with struggling and trying to get walks just to get them when the CPU is obviously throwing too many strikes. My ball/strike ratio is solid I feel, it's consistent with the MLB averages. I get those 4 and 5 pitch walks along with the hard earned walks. If anything, I have shown the CPU isn't a corner painting machine with raised pitching sliders like a few people have said. I'm playing a 162 game season and I'll keep track of my walks as I wait for the next patch (when the hell is that coming out?) to start RTTS and my 29 game season franchise. I really hate that all the generated players have the same pitching motions and batting stances.

[nomo17k]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I now totally understand why Jack has never been seen as a constructive member of the community.

It's almost like he just wants to express how he "feels" instead of substantiating any of his points. In which case, there is absolutely no reason for us to believe him or give him any credence... How he feel is entirely irrelevant, as, after all, is Jack the one who said my Susan Boyle analogy is not relevant, because stats are more accurate representation of reality than feeling which is in the eyes of beholders? Then he now says he is not a big stat guy so he can selectively weigh evidence to his favor because what he feels gives gives his theory credence... Just totally incoherent.

Jack, if you think BB/PA is a more accurate way of how you are drawing walks, why don't just give your number over a longer span then? Isn't it easy to compute? If you think you really are getting realistic strike to ball ratio, why don't you give us the number over a longer span?

I'm out of this discussion, and my conclusion is that there is absolutely no support for Jack's hypothesis. I'm sorry, but there needs to be a certain standard that should be maintained...

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I now totally understand why Jack has never been seen as a constructive member of the community.

It's almost like he just wants to express how he "feels" instead of substantiating any of his points. In which case, there is absolutely no reason for us to believe him or give him any credence... How he feel is entirely irrelevant, as, after all, is Jack the one who said my Susan Boyle analogy is not relevant, because stats are more accurate representation of reality than feeling which is in the eyes of beholders? Then he now says he is not a big stat guy so he can selectively weigh evidence to his favor because what he feels gives gives his theory credence... Just totally incoherent.

Jack, if you think BB/PA is a more accurate way of how you are drawing walks, why don't just give your number over a longer span then? Isn't it easy to compute? If you think you really are getting realistic strike to ball ratio, why don't you give us the number over a longer span?

I'm out of this discussion, and my conclusion is that there is absolutely no support for Jack's hypothesis. I'm sorry, but there needs to be a certain standard that should be maintained...

Constructive member? A lot of 11's game improvements can probably be attributed to me in some form as I was the only one complaining about how easy hitting was, how broken the power swing was, how the contact batting attribute wasn't important, how the CPU batting AI sucked, etc. This year hitting is much tougher. The power swing FINALLY has a proper risk/reward system in place, there was seriously no reason to use the normal swing as you were only putting yourself at a disadvantage for using it. The pure zone hitting system actually takes into account a batter's contact rating as the PCI changes in size based on it whereas before the PCI was the same size for every hitter thereby making the power attribute the key in determining batting averages. Any batter with good power could easily hit over .300 in any previous game regardless of their contact attribute. In RTTS, you could put every point into power and be a MLB MVP in a few short years.

I deleted my 29 game season I played right after it ended as I don't want continue to year 2 until the next patch. I know for a fact my ball/strike ratio is good because I actually have a habit of checking that a couple times a game as I play as I like working up the starter's pitch count, I just don't record the numbers like you guys. I am going to track my walk stats and strike percentages in my "killing time" season that I just started as I wait for the patch.

I'm not trying to say stats aren't important, it's just that I don't record the stats and make spreadsheets and stuff like you. If I'm averaging 2+ walks a game, that's not a red flag for me over a 29 game stretch. If I played a full 162 game season and averaged my walk totals that I posted just stretched out to 162 games, that would be a red flag. Now, if I was getting under 2 walks a game in any stretch of say 10 games or more, that would be a red flag.

There's no study on the CPU pitcher control slider so everyone's hypothesis on that has no statistical backing. My hypothesis is as valid as yours.

[nomo17k]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I deleted my 29 game season I played right after it ended as I don't want continue to year 2 until the next patch. I know for a fact my ball/strike ratio is good because I actually have a habit of checking that a couple times a game as I play as I like working up the starter's pitch count, I just don't record the numbers like you guys. I am going to track my walk stats and strike percentages in my "killing time" season that I just started as I wait for the patch..

When you are making an extraordinary claim that people aren't necessarily seeing, then you need an extraordinary evidence to support it. Otherwise, you should swallow the fact that what you feel is not universally accepted.

All you needed to do was not delete the season/franchise file, so that you can just simply copy the stats you can easily find the game. That's not an extraordinary effort you needed. You missed the chance.

What is your definition of "good" then? Remember, strike % is a very subtle thing, it can vary from 60% - 67%, average being around 63-64%. That's not a wide range, but when it's low in that range we can feel pitchers were not around the plate much, high in the range and we can feel pitchers were around the plate all night long.

In my CPU vs CPU games, the default overall was around 64% and walks were only coming at 2.5 BB per game per team. When it's down to 61 - 62%, CPU pitchers started giving 3.3 BB per game. That's the kind of subtlety we are dealing here.

Yeah, I always see the number in low 60%-ile doesn't really mean much FYI.

I'm not trying to say stats aren't important, it's just that I don't record the stats and make spreadsheets and stuff like you. If I'm averaging 2+ walks a game, that's not a red flag for me over a 29 game stretch. If I played a full 162 game season and averaged my walk totals that I posted just stretched out to 162 games, that would be a red flag. Now, if I was getting under 2 walks a game in any stretch of say 10 games or more, that would be a red flag.

Again, it's not a red flag for you, but could be for the rest of us. In that case, you have a responsibility not to take it as something universally accepted, don't you think? Why don't you just keep it to yourself, and not make suggestions to people who really benefit from more sound, better founded advice???

There's no study on the CPU pitcher control slider so everyone's hypothesis on that has no statistical backing. My hypothesis is as valid as yours.

I could easily test your theory out for you if you are not willing to do it yourself. Who would I be doing that for though. If my test turn out negative, then you will find all kinds of excuse to invalidate the results. Unfortunately with your stubbornness and incoherence, I think it won't be too long before you get banned again, so I really don't know if the time will be worth it...

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I could easily test your theory out for you if you are not willing to do it yourself. Who would I be doing that for though. If my test turn out negative, then you will find all kinds of excuse to invalidate the results. Unfortunately with your stubbornness and incoherence, I think it won't be too long before you get banned again, so I really don't know if the time will be worth it...

I haven't said any of your tests were invalid or bad, why would I start? I play the game to play the game, not to do tests. I'm not saying you should test it for me (test it for yourself if you want), it's just that I don't do tests that require such large sample sizes. I'm not calling anyone stubborn or incoherent or saying they aren't a contributing member, I'm doing far less name calling than you. And, my logic was very sound back earlier in the thread with my Premise 1, Premise 2, Conclusion post so I'm not incoherent. If those premises are true, then the conclusion has to be true. Prove premise one to be false in any instance as premise 2 was true (I got the proof on that), then the conclusion is invalid but not necessarily false.

[nomo17k]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I haven't said any of your tests were invalid or bad, why would I start? I play the game to play the game, not to do tests. I'm not saying you should test it for me (test it for yourself if you want), it's just that I don't do tests that require such large sample sizes. I'm not calling anyone stubborn or incoherent or saying they aren't a contributing member, I'm doing far less name calling than you. And, my logic was very sound back earlier in the thread with my Premise 1, Premise 2, Conclusion post so I'm not incoherent. If those premises are true, then the conclusion has to be true. Prove premise one to be false in any instance as premise 2 was true (I got the proof on that), then the conclusion is invalid but not necessarily false.

I'm not calling names, I'm just stating that's how you appear even to me, who has been patient enough to deal with a previously banned member who apparently continues the same behavior.

And unfortunately, only somebody has absolutely no knowledge of logic thinks your logic was sound. That's your problem right there... Seriously, if you want to make such a strong claim, please do some homework and learn what fallacies mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

It only shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

[nomo17k]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I'm very sorry Mod, I shouldn't have bothered dealing with this and I do sincerely apologize for derailing the thread so off topic. I thought something good was going to come out of a constructive discussion as I was honestly interested if Jack's theory would be effective in producing walks, but it ended up being just another one without much evidence to carry on. Please ban me if necessary.

Edit: Mod, I'm determined not to continue on with him because apparently nothing is going to defy him, so I won't be responding to Jack below by adding my posts. Again, I do sincerely apologize for making this happen, so please do ban me if I broke TOC. I will take the responsibility and assure that I won't be popping up under another username (LOL).

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I'm not calling names, I'm just stating that's how you appear even to me, who has been patient enough to deal with a previously banned member who apparently continues the same behavior.

And unfortunately, only somebody has absolutely no knowledge of logic thinks your logic was sound. That's your problem right there... Seriously, if you want to make such a strong claim, please do some homework and learn what fallacies mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

It only shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Then explain to me how this an invalid argument:

Premise 1: The sliders have the same function every year.

Premise 2: The pitcher control slider DID lower a pitcher's BB/9 rating as you raised the slider in 08. It was stated in the in-game description and was basically unanimously agreed upon by the OS community.

Conclusion: If sliders always do the same thing from year-to-year and raising the pitcher control slider lowered the pitcher's BB/9 rating in 08, then the pitcher control slider is doing the same thing now.

---

A valid argument is an argument in which, IF you accept the premises, THEN you must accept the conclusion, or else you are contradicting yourself. In the case of a valid argument, if you grant the premises, then you must grant the conclusion. The conclusion does indeed follow from the premises. Hence, in the case of a VALID argument, IF the premises be true, then the conclusion MUST be true.

A sound argument is a valid argument in which each premise is true. And since the argument is valid, the conclusion must be true, also, because it is impossible, in the case of a valid argument, for the premises to be true and the conclusion be false.

My argument is at least a valid argument as if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. Whether it is sound or unsound is whether both premises are true. Premise 2 is true; however, Premise 1 might not be true.

I know my logic.

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Please ban me if necessary.

Why? You didn't offend me in any way. We are obviously very serious when it comes to this game and have opposing opinions, discussions like this just happen. On pretty much any other forum, a thread like this would've been a lot worse. Yeah, stuff got off track a bit but it's not a big deal.

[Jpowser]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Been following this and haven't posted anything and I'm curious what everyone was using for control and consistency for both cpu and user?

[Bobhead]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Been following this and haven't posted anything and I'm curious what everyone was using for control and consistency for both cpu and user?

For Human Control/Consist I use 2/3; and for CPU I use 5/2/6. I have a myriad of reasoning for it but I don't really want to get into that in the middle of all the other discussions occuring here.

Most of the "vets" on the board however use something along the lines of 3/3 and 4/4/3, respectively. I don't support that spread because other things happen in the background that I don't like, but I does it what it is supposed to do: varies pitches and increases walks.

[JackBurton]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

Been following this and haven't posted anything and I'm curious what everyone was using for control and consistency for both cpu and user?

I'm using CPU control 7, consistency 8, and strike freq 5.

For the user, pitching sliders really don't matter much if you use the meter or analog pitching as user skill determines so much. For analog pitching, consistency alters the sensitivity of the right stick.

[coreyhartsdaughter]

Re: pitch consistency and pitch control need help

I'm using CPU control 7, consistency 8, and strike freq 5.

For the user, pitching sliders really don't matter much if you use the meter or analog pitching as user skill determines so much. For analog pitching, consistency alters the sensitivity of the right stick.

I knew it was you...