Question About Hitting a Pitch

[DaveDQ]

I only played little league baseball, and it wasn't on a very large scale, so the only pitch I saw was how hard the pitcher could throw. I never really had a chance to try and hit a guy that had 3 good pitches.

I'm curious about those who have had that chance. When I see a guy hit a curve ball that doesn't hang and he just nails it, is that because he can time it or was he guessing? I can watch a game and often predict the next pitch, but these pitches come fast. The closest I have come to hitting something fast is the batting cages, and with that, I can not imagine how hard it is to hit something over 90 MPH.

For those who have experience, is it in the guess or adjustment..or both?

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Eventually the pitch just becomes something that you learn to pick up and read the spin of subconsciously. Just like when you swing at a pitch, you are doing it because you tell yourself that you're swinging at a strike (or a pitch you want to swing at), though you're not necessarily thinking it in your head and processing it. Same situation here.

The curveball is an off-speed pitch, and unlike a change up it doesn't come out looking like a fastball from the arm action or the spin of the pitch. The only reason you would hit a curveball is if it will come in for a strike, meaning it begins out of the strike zone. They are pretty easy to adjust to without sitting on because they come in slower. So when you first see it shoot up high and it's not coming at a ridiculous speed, eventually you will read that spin and know that it's a curveball coming back down into the strike zone. Just let it get deep and you'll definitely get on it. Curveballs have a similar arc to what you're used to in the backyard or when you're a little kid, so you know it very well. You just have to react to it is all, which a lot of people freeze up on it.

Speaking of freezing up on it, I suppose that's where someone like me has an advantage. I'm a switch hitter, so if someone throws a curveball it always starts on the outside and breaks over the plate, not starting on the inside. So I can't speak for those who buckle their knees and freeze their hands inside when they see that pitch coming for them. I guess you just have to get used to it like everything.

As for a pitch that's coming over the middle and bottoms out below the zone, it's that same idea that you don't ever see it at any time coming as a fastball. It's coming in slower and with a different spin, and most curves that start at that height tend to "break" earlier (or so it seems to). You can see it plenty quickly, and even if you start your hands as long as your reaction time is quick enough it is plenty easy to hold up.

Eventually a curveball becomes a very easy pitch to hit, or to lay off of for that matter. It's not something that you have to think about or sit on, but if you sit on it and get it you can become a very dangerous hitter. There are many pitchers that are much more difficult to hit. Two-seam fastballs and sinkers are fine but you may top them, and when you get to higher up competitive levels a change up isn't a pitch that is supposed to be thrown in the strike zone, so the sooner you recognize it the sooner you can take it. The only pitch I've ever had to play a guessing game on is a good splitter. I haven't seen too many pitchers with in my lifetime that have a really good handle of it, but so far that's the one pitch that I literally have to guess what pitch is coming, and I only hope that I'm right. Until then I don't yet know how to handle a good split-fastball pitcher. The cutter has the same effect in terms of guessing, but when I guess incorrectly I don't swing and miss... I just either get it off the handle or the end of the bat.

[faster]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Here's a point of view from a guy who was a pretty good ball player at a few levels.... one of the things I can say I was good at LOL

Timing and eye-hand coordination are paramount to successful hitting. The ability to get the bat around on the ball quick enough is also crucial, and is probably the single biggest issue that separates pro athletes from others. That comes from years of practice and honing your swing, but more than that, some of it is god given quickness and reaction time, it really is. An interesting side note, those that are very good at baseball, are tops in the world as far as reaction time. Even at a high school or college level, take those top baseball players and test reaction speed vs. any other sport and you'll see the difference. It's unique skill for the sport just like jumping and quickness separates athletes in other sports.

Above that, once you have the reaction time, it's all just learning to judge where pitches are going to be. You hear people say watch the ball hit the ball, but the truth is, no one see that contact point. Instead, you train your body and mind to quickly analyze where the contact point WILL be, and you make a guess and swing there. That's a skill that's learned but can't be fully taught.

Moving a step beyond that, if you can hit a fast ball and you can hit breaking pitches, you're not even close to being able to apply that. Next you need to study a pitcher and understand tendencies. Not everyone understands that step nor is able to analyze that quickly, accurately, and respond at the plate.

For example, it seems easy to be at bat, and know the count at all times. It's not, believe me. Add to that, you've studied a pitcher for hours and you think you know his tendencies. Now you have to be quick enough to apply it to your situation.... is there a runner on base? is he pitching from the stretch? what has he already thrown to you? does he rely on a curve in this count? do they know your tendencies and will they adjust? so now you put all that knowledge together and you have about 10 seconds between pitches to analyze it make a plan of attack.

at this point, you have an idea of what might be coming and that's what is going to determine your strategy.

hitters sit fastball on hitters counts. they know there's a likelihood of getting a fast ball and they won't swing unless they get one. fact is, if you're honed in fast ball it's hard to adjust to anything else. why do you think you see a 2-0 hanging curve at times not swung at? hitter was looking fast ball and it caught him off guard.

there are also curve ball hitters that sit curveball, those are the dangerous types. everyone can hit a fastball when they are put in a hitters count. but, if you can sit curveball and hit it well, you on another level. the problem is, sitting curveball means there's no way you'll hit a fastball. so that's where hitters waste pitches and why.

wasting pitches is another issue altogether. when you watch an at bat, how many times have people screamed because "that was right down the plate, why did he swing?" why? it's because he was sitting a different pitch or was caught off guard by what was coming.

with all that was said above, there are also reactionary hitters... though i don't believe there are many of them. those guys are especially dangerous because they can simply read and react. however, they can also be fooled more easily. it's very rare to find a reactionary hitter that also deeply understands the analysis part too. that's where you're talking the truly gifted.... bonds, pujols, manny, etc.

just my take over the years. i played a lot of ball at a few levels and you start to understand how and why people are good. some guys don't even know why they're good. it's those people that, when they learn to analyze the game, IF they can, they become exceptionally good.

[faster]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

And without a doubt, a splitter is the hardest pitch to hit in my opinion. I have no gameplan because you don't see it often, it moves fast, and it's course of movement isn't as predictable as most other "junk" pitches.

As a fun exercise, watch your favorite players in the majors and see what their weaknesses are. Then, see if you think they are reactionary, analytical, or both. Then, see why you think they fail as often as they do.

Here's an example..... Craig Monroe. Clearly a reactionary hitter. Almost no improvement since entering the league. Not able to understand the situtaion and apply it. Note that he can get around on any pitch and doesn't walk. Clear indication he's not analytical and though he has the reaction, he can't apply the other part to improve. Disappointing.

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

I guess I never really fully read the OP's post as I guess he also wanted to know how it is that they can still stay on the fastball when such a pitch as the curveball is in their repertoire, let alone be able to catch up to it as is. A lot of good points had been said by faster and I am thrilled that somebody sees hitting in the same light as I do. Strangely, I am only 21 years old but I think I understand the mentality, art, and science of hitting more than 20% of major league ballplayers. I wouldn't say that I am a "crafty" hitter, but I truly am a perfectionist (that doesn't mean I'm perfect, but I strive for said perfection).

As for my personal approach, here's my first philosophy, and it's not a good one to teach because umpires are so inconsistent and varying, but it's one that has worked for me through the years: if it's not in the strike zone, it is a ball. And what I mean by "strike zone" is your pre-determined idea of what the strike zone is. I see it as white-edge to white-edge of the 17 inch plate where the bald-edge of the ball is allowed to cross over at the front of the plate (even a millimeter off should be called a ball) from about the belly button to high-knee (that is, the bottom of the ball can hit your belly button, and the top of the ball can paint the top of the knee). Anything else is a ball.

When I was younger we had a pitching machine where all I would do is literally set it up right off the outside, off the inside, off the top and bottom of the zones and watch pitches go by, and I would do hundreds of them daily. I have trained myself to see pitches that miss by less than inches and I feel I've been very good at that. People say hand-eye coordination is natural, but it can be taught. As I said, I'm a switch-hitter, but I wasn't always. I started when I was 11 years old and I taught myself the swing and re-learned the strike zone.

Now as for more overall approach tips, here's how I essentially do it:

Count 3 - 0: Take the pitch. That may sound clichéd, but a lot of people these days are now including an exception that is "unless it is perfect." Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what we do on "hitter's counts"? I'll get into those in a second, but basically there is so much going against the pitcher in this situation. He needs to throw a strike yes, but he has missed off the plate for three consecutive pitches so there is no guarantee that he will even heave it over the plate for the first strike. Let's look at my protegé, Barry Bonds. I can't get three-year splits with him anymore, but in 2002 he hit .250 on 3 - 0 counts, and counts after 3 - 0 (non-inclusive) he hit .667. What you have to remember is that even if you take a first strike, you are still in a hitter's count. It's just not worth hacking at a pitch that you have less than half the chance of earning a safe knock than it is to take the pitch. It's another pitch that you get to see and time well... watch it go by.

Counts 2 - 0, 3 - 1: These are those "hitter's counts," and this is something that I talk to my little sister about all of the time. Here is the basic premise on these counts: if you swing, you better crush it. In these counts, you shrink the strike zone to about the size of a softball. You look at less than a quarter of the plate (I think I'm being generous in saying that), and you're sitting on nothing but a fastball. In high school you may often hear people talking about "spitting on a curveball." What that means is if he throws it in there for a strike, you tip your cap at his confidence in the pitch in such a count and lay off of it. You are looking fastball and one spot (I favor the inside pitch), so you will not ever be late on this pitch and you will never be fooled. If it's on the corner of the zone or just not what you were looking for, so what? People tend to have a mindset that your at bat is destroyed once you get to two strikes, but gasp, you still actually have one more strike to work with... plus the pitcher still has three balls so you're just one pitch away from drawing a walk as well. I have more to say about this but I'm sure I could save that for a novel.

Counts 0 - 0, 1 - 0, 1 - 1, 2 - 1: Look at one half of the plate, have a pitch in mind but don't necessarily sit on it. I am okay at looking for the fastball on the inside and adjusting, but normally if it is not there I'm not going to swing at it. I would consider myself a typical lead-off hitter where I continually draw full counts. I mean I do it very often. It helps me in the long run because the second and third time I face that pitcher I have seen him quite a lot and know what he throws. I normally don't end an at-bat on less than four pitches, so I see this count very often. It's kind of the different hit-and-run counts as well (though the best ones are 1 - 0 and 2 - 1, as I explain in this post of this thread). Anyway, these are those counts where people may sit on a pitch that's not a fastball, like the curveball. It's not a good idea normally because it seems they like to go into "reactionary" mode and they'll swing at a fastball if it comes, but they'll be far too late by that time and foul it off down the line. That's the only reason why I say "don't necessarily sit on it" because a lot of people can't hold off swinging at something else when it's not in their benefit.

Count 0 - 1 or a 2 strike count: Your strike zone is now expanded to the strike zone and you're swinging at anything that is in the zone. But hopefully since you have already seen at least two pitches, then you know what each of his pitches do. Unfortunately you may have swung at them so all you know is how to adjust to what you have seen, but not necessarily look for what you have seen. There is no such advantage to choking up here, playing protect mode (like swinging 60%) or anything like that. You're still in your at bat and you want to maximize your chances to get on base, so swing like you have but looking at the entire strike zone instead of just one pitch. If the pitcher is smart, he will probably not throw a strike on an 0 - 2 or 1 - 2 count. He may try and bite some black and hope that the umpire calls it, but normally this is where he wants a hitter to be vulnerable and chase a waste pitch, like a curve or change up in the dirt. That, or he'll completely waste it just to establish another pitch. So if he throws an inside fastball that brushes you back a step, he's setting that up for an off-speed pitch on the outside (or the other way around). The only real problem with two strikes is the confidence people have in themselves: they are so concerned about not striking out that they forget the little things about hitting and they panic. I've had enough two strike counts in my life where they are just commonplace and are nothing out of the ordinary, though I've taken my share of third strikes (which were really balls) and don't regret knowing my own strike zone in taking the pitch. This is where you'll see most "reactionary" hitters.



Now with all of that approach stuff aside, I wanted to give you a brief outlook on how to get the quickest swing possible (or approach the ball with the barrel of the bat with solidity and consistency). Remember that I said before that if it's not in the strike zone it's a ball; I say this because my way works best for pitches only in the strike zone. Think of it like certain values being spit into the quadratic formula: you will get values that spit out "solutions" (results of good contact) and there are some not within that range because they don't have a real solution.

So, here's how I see it. We swing with our legs, and we guide and drive with our arms. The swing starts from the back fo... actually, let me backtrack. The swing starts from your "load" position. Some people call it a "zero spot" or "trigger," but it is basically the moment that you are positioned at right before you begin your swing. It is important because your start with a batting stance of your comfort, but you don't end there. Look at any good hitting player with their stance, but the moment right before they're swing they are all uniform. They are a bit spread, their hands back but not extended, and hopefully their weight is back, which is my next point. You shift your weight back (between 60/40 and 70/30) to load for two physical reasons that I can support: 1) You will stay behind the ball for a longer period of time than you would with your weight forward (and every inch makes a difference); 2) Your pivot from your back foot ("squishing the bug") will be more accentuated in your overall body mechanics, and will help build torque that shoots through your body so you can get your hips and shoulders through, clearing yourself to get access to any part of the strike zone with the barrel.

The last quick thing about the legs (because I'm clearly just ranting now) is prioritization. You start your swing with your pivot, not your hands. Like I said, it clears you to get your hands through any part of the zone with ease, and by the time you guide your hands your shoulders will whip you around (from the torque built) to "turn on a ball" (see where they get that term?). Basically, this is why little guys can be in the majors and still have a derivation of power. For one, pitchers supply a bit of it with their pitch speed, but they combat it with great bat speed built from their leg torque and proper weight distribution. That's why I almost don't prefer using the term "swing" because it sounds like an arm motion when it is really mostly leg work.

Now the arms are somewhat simple, but they are very hard to apply correctly. But again, the idea is simple: knob to the ball. With your bottom hand, you lead your knob literally directly to where the ball will "end up." I say that like a quarterback leads a throw to a receiver, because curveballs and other pitches drop unlike a fastball so there is that split time where your body sort of just knows where it is going to end up based on physics, as faster says in this part of his post in different words:

Above that, once you have the reaction time, it's all just learning to judge where pitches are going to be. You hear people say watch the ball hit the ball, but the truth is, no one see that contact point. Instead, you train your body and mind to quickly analyze where the contact point WILL be, and you make a guess and swing there. That's a skill that's learned but can't be fully taught.

You do that, and your pivot turns you off the ball so your barrel centers it. But again, you need to have your weight back and get your pivot moving first. Many people in this case want to take an inside route to the ball and they end up "pulling off," meaning their pivot turns them around too much where they get it off the end of the bat. The bat is an extension of your hands. Where your hands go, the bat will go.

That's not so difficult, but the hardest part is keeping a compact swing. It is good for two reasons as well: 1) it is a quicker route to the ball (think of taking the inside turn in a race); 2) on contact you still have room for extension (or "top hand drive") to get any last bit of power in your swing that you want. It's tougher to describe in text but I show it to all of my hitters in slow-motion so they understand it. What this requires is that you don't "jam your hands in" (which is really jamming your elbows in your gut), but rather throwing them out there in bent-elbow form, so you lead your knob and elbow in the ball's direction while keeping your weight back. So essentially, everything flies out except your head and your hands, and combine it all and you have a nice controlled swing for any pitch in the zone. Then there is a timing thing involved, but I feel I have run out of time but I would love to write another thing just as long as I have now to expand on this.

But basically, because of physics and logic, you can create a quick swing and guarantee yourself barrel contact in the strike zone with ideas such as this. That's how Bonds does it and look at how it worked for him, with or without steroids.

Wow, that wasn't brief at all.



Sorry that I posted so much, but you ask a baseball question and you get a baseball answer. It is very philosophical and does not deserve anything less than a long, drawn-out explanation because you don't want to leave out even the subtlest of information. And to be honest, I didn't get into timing at all and it is far too important to neglect, but that is best saved for the actual physical lesson and better to just tell you now how "important" it is and just hope that you take my word for it.

Oh, and one more thing... there was a thread where a few of us were arguing about cursor/zone hitting in baseball games and why one would be more beneficial than the other, and I think that will help you a bit more on why it is that players are actually so good at making contact on such high pitch speeds. You can find it here.

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Moving a step beyond that, if you can hit a fast ball and you can hit breaking pitches, you're not even close to being able to apply that. Next you need to study a pitcher and understand tendencies. Not everyone understands that step nor is able to analyze that quickly, accurately, and respond at the plate.

I actually quickly wanted to expand on this notion because it's very important to hitters. You know (not you directly, but in general) when you see a player on deck that is "timing a pitcher" by attempting to swing at the same time the pitcher is swinging? That is about the worst thing that you can do when on deck. Yes, get some swings in, and maybe even have your bat ready and load in time to be ready to swing, but don't swing. When you swing, you jerk your head and you're not even paying attention to what he's actually throwing. Chances are you were way off on timing it as well. You are on the side, 30 some feet away from the plate. You have no freakin' idea how to time a pitch from there. What you want to do is analyze what he's throwing in what counts, how he's pacing himself from the stretch... anything that you can get to really see that ball out of his hand.

I am personally advantaged as a lead-off hitter where I almost have the luxury in my first at bat to be asked to see as many pitches as possible. If I get in a two-strike hole, so what? I talked about how it's no different. I don't strike out often, and in fact I tend to draw a walk my first at bat. But once I get back into the dugout, I'll give a full scouting report on everything that I saw. I never end my first at bat on less than three pitches; that is not only hurting the other players that I need to feed information back to, but I'm hurting myself. I love to watch that first pitch go in. I get to see his arm slot, his fastball speed, etc. Normally after I see every pitch I can take a mental picture of it and its spin, and I'm set for the rest of the day on that pitcher's stuff. So it definitely pays to watch pitches. It's not just something that people say for good health, but I don't even think most people that say it really know what that means.

[faster]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

I could get really in depth with subject and probably would get kicked off the forums, but I won't go that deep. It's still a fun subject to discuss.

The on deck note above is great. My recommendation is to use that time to figure out how to best prepare yourself for the at bat. What do I mean? Some people need it to calm down.... some need it to reassess the pitcher, some people need it to analyze the game situation, some need to find their girlfriend because that gets them in the zone, etc. Try to figure out your weak spot as a hitter as far as preparation, then address it in the on deck circle as a final check. Make sense? For me........... I was a tremendous hitter when I was relaxed and didn't put pressure on myself. Coaches knew before the at bat what they were getting with me. My problem was that I if i was nervous or too hard on myself or thinking about something else, i sucked HARD. REALLY hard. So when i was on deck i watched my teammate and analyzed his at bat, his hands, the pitcher, the whole scene. Why? because i knew it took my mind off myself.

oh yeah, if you swing at the first pitch, well............ you get benched. i had a huge long reason why, but lets just say that you give yourself no advantage, your teammates no advantage, and you give the other pitcher an advantage regardless of outcome.

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

I could get really in depth with subject and probably would get kicked off the forums, but I won't go that deep. It's still a fun subject to discuss.

Yeah, as I said earlier... hitting is not a shallow subject at all. Swinging can be somewhat shallow, but hitting in general requires so much grasp to truly become advanced in it (I wouldn't say that I am, but I feel I do know my stuff) that books can be written about it. Some of it is personable, but I feel there are techniques that apply for everybody and should be taught globally (except for slap hitters).

[faster]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

the best piece of advice i can give somebody on how to improve their hitting, without analyzing their swing, etc, is to alleviate all wasted motion in their swing. ultimately you want to get your swing through the zone to contact the ball as efficiently as you can. eliminate anything you can that add complexity and makes it harder to duplicate that same motion over and over with ease.

for example, if you EVER see a right handed batter with their right elbow up in the air, the first thing they need to do is bring that elbow down. why? because the first thing they will do is drop it, then swing. sigh......... this is going to turn into the hitting forum, i swear.

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

As for what you said, this is correct but I do ask that they don't conform to how other people think they should bat so long that they are properly triggered/loaded when they need to. If a batting rhythm like Craig Counsell is an appropriate timing mechanism and gives them the best eye for seeing the ball, so be it. But if I find that they aren't getting cocked in time or whatever it is that is wearing down their preparedness, I ask them to find another comfort zone. A stance is as creative as you want it to be, but it's not for looks.

But yeah, I agree. The other thing (without analyzing it but assuming they know what to do anyway) is to ask them to do daily repetitions. The tee is the single greatest invention to improve a swing because it requires no focus on making contact with a moving ball, as the ball stays still. You get to work on mechanics and work on building good habits.

Muscle memory is key because aside all of the subconscious thoughts that go on through one's mind for your approach in an at bat, the only things you want to think about are what to swing at (ball or strike) and when to swing at it. 'Where' to swing is a part of that muscle memory, learning to bring that knob to the ball and making that a habit. 'How' to swing at it should not vary; if the pitch is in the strike zone, it is the same leg work and arm work with different hand guidance and different timing.

One thing a hitter doesn't want to do while is clutter their mind with conscious thoughts about fundamentals and good form. So, you shouldn't be thinking: "Keep your weight back," "Drop your elbow," "Pivot hard." Those should be gained through a lot of tee work and daily repetitions.

And I don't want to start getting into a coaching thing (you're right, this will be a hitting forum), but nobody knows how to do soft toss right. When they do it, they're destroying a player's swing without knowing it and refocusing their eye on the ball. The best approach is being at about a 45 degree angle and darting underhand tosses below their front elbow, asking them to 'hit spread' (be as if you have already taken your stride, which I also note to hitters that taking a stride is not necessary... but that can be saved for another post) and load when I get my arm cocked back. Then the first movement is the pivot, etc. etc. I even put a tee and a ball in front of them as a target to hit (in front of the net) so they can make between-toss adjustments.

I want to start writing a book now.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Wow, very interesting reading. Thanks for the replies.

[Speedy]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Do you currently play in college, Blzr, or just like a local baseball/softball league?

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Do you currently play in college, Blzr, or just like a local baseball/softball league?

I tried out as a walk-on my freshman year and went as far as practicing with them and intersquading (faced Strasburg once), but was eventually cut. There were 43 people on the team before we even had tryouts.

Afterward Gwynn put in a good word for me in the SDABL (San Diego Adult Baseball League) and I've been playing there since. It's wood bat and all so it's nice, but I'd like to play for SDSU honestly.

[Speedy]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

A Tony Gwynn referral...nice. What position?

[Blzer]

Re: Question About Hitting a Pitch

Center field. Wouldn't trade it for any other position.

And like I said, my role has mostly been lead-off hitter. I'm not like those scrap Luis Castillo lead-off hitters where you expect weak looking swings or whatever. I'm a bit more prideful than that in my at bats.