Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Last years IGN's MLB 2K7's Post Mortem was nice, but it was more of a "we didn't have time to get to this stuff and want to get to it next year", not a "we screwed this up and shipped the game anyway" kind of discussion. I think there is a big difference in what we didn't get to do then what we did knowingly wrong.

What would you expect him to say though? If he said they were unaware of [insert issue here], you're immediately going to say "[rhymes with fullship]!!!". If he says they were aware of the issues and shipped it anyway you're going to say he cares nothing for the quality of the game or for it's consumers. It's a no-win. It would seem to me it's not like it'd be all Brinkman's decision as to when to release the game - I'm sure the marketing dept. or whatever department that focuses on the financial side of it also weighs in.

And blame consumers. A lot of time, we don't wait on a title as much as we jump on the first thing available. Which is why those companies that pull back deserve credit. I think that's what 989 did with The Show last year (or in '06, can't remember). I think that's what 2K did with NFL2K4. But I remember in each case fans mostly killing the company for the decision. I don't know that much about The Show's situation, but I remember people on the forums saying it was an idiotic move for 2K to delay 2K4, and perhaps people said the same last year with The Show (or was it in '06?). Either way, I always see fans jumping to either side of the fence and never accepting partial responsibility themselves for deciding to purchase the game in the first place.

[baa7]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Well said. The truth is that 2k deliberately rushed an incomplete product out of the door and expects us to advance them $60 a copy while they finish it.

Whew! Expectations like that must be a terrible burden! See, what I do to get around expectations like that, is I just don't open my wallet and advance them the $60 a copy!

[baa7]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

What would you expect him to say though?

I pwomise
I will make
a willy good game
next year!

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Those are called bugs and glitches. They occur in any game. How does their putting out a game with glitches, lead to your statement: "Maybe a little public humiliation would do some good?"

Nor can one take them to task for putting out a game in which the gameplay isn't up to some gamers' personal standards. Has EA apologized for Madden at any time in the past decade?

You're assuming these are bugs and glitches. You don't know if they were aware of them or not. As Kush has said, sometimes things break a week before release and they have to go on. To me a bug or glitch is something that happens occasionally because of either some sort of coincedence or something that just rarely happens. Being flat out broken is not a bug or a glitch.

It leads me to my public humiliation statement, because it's easy to be wreckless with a product when you don't ever have to own up to your mistakes. It's much harder to just skip over something if you actually have to answer to your critics. It's easy to say F-the franchise mode we don't have time, if you never have to own up to that. However if you know your going to be publicly berated for it, you will think twice about that decision.

I'm not talking about perfection here, just obvious errors. It's not like I'm saying once every 100 games I do everything right and I throw a meatball. I'm saying something obvious like the computer doesn't steal.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

And blame consumers.

This is the wrong argument here. I'm not saying my game is broke and I want my money back...All I am saying is "Why is this part broke?" "Why doesn't the computer ever try to steal a base?"

I'm not mad I spent my money, I like the game. I just want to know why certain, obvious things were let go. I think that is a fair question.

[milbrewcity]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Here's my guess on the ordeal -

Framerate issues and other bugs/glitches were noticed, and made aware to members of management that make the ultimate go/no go decision. Management believed that the key was to hit the date, and had assurances that fluidity issues could be resolved reasonably soon via a patch.

Management decided that missing the date would be more detrimental than hitting the date and getting a patch out as soon as possible.

The framerate issues probably reared its head late in the development cycle, and while management is probably telling Brinkman (or whoever the lead is) that it's ok, and they understand the complexities of developing next-gen sports games, they are curious in the back of their minds as to how SCEA is able to hit the market without such problems.

Brinkman would never be canned because of this, but I would expect tighter controls on the next development cycle, which fortunately should translate into a better game for us all next year. There's a chance that Brinkman isn't dealing with the caliber of people he had while with EA.

Framerate will get patched, maybe some other small bugs as well, but I wouldn't expect anything that would require massive code overhaul. I think once you get into the logic surrounding something like when to steal bases, it may get too complex to mess with.

Again, this is PURELY speculation, but I'm guessing this is how it all happened.

[DrJones]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

On a personal level, I'm not looking for anything from 2K. I bought the game and enjoy it. I think for the most part, it plays much better than 2K7 and like Baa, haven't experienced the frame rate problems. Not once did I say they "owed" us anything.

Still, 2K released a game with obvious problems (like many developers do), most of which aren't disclosed to the buyer and for once it would be nice to just put them on the spot and force them to explain why. I disagree with Baa saying that besides the frame rate issue there isn'tanything else "wrong" because there are many, many things in this game that aren't "right" when it comes to baseball. But that is beside the point. This isn't my list of complaints.

The best way to stop developers from releasing broken products is to have people stop buying the games until the get it right...But, This will never happen (see next paragraph). However, these companies do rely on gaming sites to help promote their product prior to release, so why not have those sites who helped them out before hand put pressure on them afterwards when their product doesn't live up to their own words (60 FPS).

People will never stop buying games for several reasons. 1) Casual gamers (the majority) can care less about the problems and won't pick up on most of them or don't even know they exist to begin with. 2) Some people just need their "fix" of a certain genre of a game and have no other choice and 3) $60 just isn't that much to a lot of people. Most people make a lot more money now then they did back in the day when they were paying $40 and $50 for Nintendo games.

Maybe a little public humiliation would do some good for us is all I'm saying. These guys really never have to face any sort of ciritcsm publicly. They over hype their game leading up to it's release and then hide out afterwards. Maybe I'm just used to be held accountable for my actions.

If by "hide out", you mean "take time off because he's been working 80-100 hours a week for the last several months", then you'd be correct.

Ben's employer is Take-Two. His job is to make sure the game gets out on time, or he (and other people) gets fired. He wants to put out the best game possible. A lot of things happen behind the scenes when making a game. The End.

As with any product, games are buyer-beware, folks. Read reviews. Rent games. Return games you don't like. Criticize a game's flaws or lack of features. Demand better products. All good. If you want Ben (or any other developer) to come into one of these forums and be "publically humiliated" because you don't think the game was as good as advertised, you're out of line.

[DrJones]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

touche

But in all honesty, there would be a sense of satisfaction to hear 2K (Hell all developers) answer some "What the hell were you thinking" questions.

Right. And a lot of the "real answers" would anger people they work with (and more importantly, people they work FOR), resulting in workplace unpleasantness at best, termination at worst. All to make random dudes on a message board happy? I think not.

[mgoblue]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Right. And a lot of the "real answers" would anger people they work with (and more importantly, people they work FOR), resulting in workplace unpleasantness at best, termination at worst. All to make random dudes on a message board happy? I think not.

Exactly. I'm sure you knew about issues when releasing games, but there just wasn't time or resources to fix them by a certain date. I'm sure Brinkman knew about most of these issues, but just couldn't do it. I see that every day at my job, there's a ton of improvements to the product we'd like to do, but there's not the time or money sometimes.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

If by "hide out", you mean "take time off because he's been working 80-100 hours a week for the last several months", then you'd be correct.

Ben's employer is Take-Two. His job is to make sure the game gets out on time, or he (and other people) gets fired. He wants to put out the best game possible. A lot of things happen behind the scenes when making a game. The End.

As with any product, games are buyer-beware, folks. Read reviews. Rent games. Return games you don't like. Criticize a game's flaws or lack of features. Demand better products. All good. If you want Ben (or any other developer) to come into one of these forums and be "publically humiliated" because you don't think the game was as good as advertised, you're out of line.

For the last time, this isn't a rant against the game....just asking someone to take ownership in obvious mishaps/errors/mistakes, etc.

Your argument doesn't work here, I'm not bitching about my purchase...I like the game, mostly. But thanks for the tip next time I screw up with something at work, I will remember to tell my boss that "A lot of things happen behind the scenes when doing [my job]. The End."

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Right. And a lot of the "real answers" would anger people they work with (and more importantly, people they work FOR), resulting in workplace unpleasantness at best, termination at worst. All to make random dudes on a message board happy? I think not.

By random dudes, you mean paying customers...I'm not asking for him to call his co-workers out, but at least own up to the mistakes.

I know you do or used to work in the industry so you obviously have a different perspective that the typical end-user, but imagine you bought a house and the plumbing didn't work, though it should have and you weren't pre-warned that it didn't...would you just say "oh well" Things go on behind the scenes? I mean, they did a great job in the kitchen and the crown molding in the dining room is great.

Maybe public humiliation was harsh...how about public criticism? How about just some critical, to the point questions. I think that would be fair. "Ben, why doesn't the AI steal?" "Ben, what's with every pitcher throwing strikes at the rate of Greg Maddux?" "Ben, why does my pitching rotation reset every time I go to the rotation screen?".

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

Exactly. I'm sure you knew about issues when releasing games, but there just wasn't time or resources to fix them by a certain date. I'm sure Brinkman knew about most of these issues, but just couldn't do it. I see that every day at my job, there's a ton of improvements to the product we'd like to do, but there's not the time or money sometimes.

And I'm fine with that. If there wasn't time to fix something or implement something, just acknowledge it, own up to it. "We Ran out of Time", "We didn't realize it was a problem", "We will work to fix it", denying it or ignoring it is kind of the cowards way out.

[myghty]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

And I'm fine with that. If there wasn't time to fix something or implement something, just acknowledge it, own up to it. "We Ran out of Time", "We didn't realize it was a problem", "We will work to fix it", denying it or ignoring it is kind of the cowards way out.

I agree. I would have more respect for him if he would just come out & say "We F'ed Up" instead of not saying anything about it & playing the "other game" at home instead of his own....

[DrJones]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

For the last time, this isn't a rant against the game....just asking someone to take ownership in obvious mishaps/errors/mistakes, etc.

Your argument doesn't work here, I'm not bitching about my purchase...I like the game, mostly. But thanks for the tip next time I screw up with something at work, I will remember to tell my boss that "A lot of things happen behind the scenes when doing [my job]. The End."

Your analogy would work if you were Ben's boss. You're not, you're the customer.

What if something that you screwed up on work was because of the boss, or your boss's boss, or one or more of your co-workers? Would you throw them under the bus on a public forum that you knew your boss and co-workers were probably reading?

I've been pretty forthright on these forums. But if I told the forums everything that I knew about how certain decisions are made and how and why things went wrong on certain games that I've worked on, I'd be blackballed from the industry. No offense, but you guys aren't worth it.

[HokieB]

Re: Will there be any kind of follow up with Brinkman?

I think the fact that 2k purchased exclusive rights to MLB does make them more accountable than in most cases.

Because of their exclusivity deal, this is my only choice for baseball on the 360. Since they've taken away my right to choose, I think it's fair to hold them to a higher standard.

With that said, I absolutely love this game. But many of the issues holding it back are pretty ridiculous and worthy of pushing the release date back IMO.