Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

[gilbostank]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

My take: Get rid of all the stick non sense. I liked baseball games for their simplicity. These days it's hard to relax while flicking the damn stick.

If you really feel that way then go play Ken Griffey Jr. Slugfest on the 64. It's simple to play and simple looking. I enjoy it all the time. I don't think that 2k8's as simple as just back and forward because you can choose what kind of hits you take with the swing stick. I think people just do the regular back and forward and that's why they have the beef on the lack of realistic pitch counts and all that. if you actually try to choose where you hit with the swing stick ( read the tutorials) then you'll get a better baseball experience in my opinion. While I didn't really find the game easy to play when I got it I slowly warmed up to it and got to play with the little nuances and find it extremely fun and have even played a whole 182 game season along with good 2 player games with my brother and a couple online games. so relax have fun and don't be so serious.

[kubankaos]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

It's funny, I have MLB the show and MVP with the current 08 Mod and I still play 2k8 quite a bit. I just enjoy the swing stick, the pitching and fielding mechanics. In my mind it blows those two other games out of the water it terms fun factor, I just get really bored with hitting X for hitting and meter pitching.

I really hope they don't get rid of those new controls. You can fine tune it, but don't dumb it down in the process either. Also hopefully they won't dumb it down either. Just get rid of the meatball aspect and make it so I less control and I'll be happy. Maybe a pitch control slider would be nice. Something to just make me throw more balls, but not necessarily more meatballs that turn into homers. I like the pitcher/batter duel in The Show.

But 2K8 misses the boat in a lot of other areas. One is graphics. MVP 2005 with the 08 Mod running at 1920x1200 on my monitor looks so much better to me vs 2K8. My ideal game would be a mix of all three of those games, but mostly consisting of MVP and 2K8. I also love the physics of the ball in MVP. It's the first game that I ever noticed the ball. It feels real in MVP vs the two console versions of the game.

Well just some random thoughts and wishes.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

2K's controls are fine (all 98 sets of them)...it's the game they control that needs work. the reason people flock to The Show over 2K8 isn't controls or even pure gameplay, it's the nuances. 2K baseball needs to decide what it wants to be and then build. This is the most schizophrenic game development I've seen. 2K7 had good lighting, solid presentation, excellent graphics and signature styles. The controls needed tweaking but were a good base (the pitching needed more than tweaks, however).

2K8 revamps the controls and largely do a good job. They also expand upon the signature styles and animations. They look very fluid at times. The problem is they downgraded to 2K6 player models, coloring, and lighting (very bad...Red Sox should never look Maroon under any circumstances). They add more hitting sounds and some hit variety, but there are still too many homeruns and they remove some of the positive functionality of the original hit stick. They add more presentation and supposedly "clean up" the commentary, but get rid of reactive crowds and can't get the commentary to sync up with what's on the screen. They fix the franchise freezing but have roster glitches and framerate issues. I'm sure this pattern sounds very familiar to people who have been frustrated with Madden over the last several years.

2K needs to stop messing with what works and actually focus on gameplay and presentation. Ditch the silly gimics like HR innings and meatballs (the stuff that screams ARCADE) and focus on what makes baseball unique. Until they get a concrete sense of direction then it's going to be a while before we get what we want from 2K baseball, I'm afraid.

[Lisa_Bonami]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

To also add onto these points, the one area that alot of developers seem to overlook when trying to create a lasting game that will engage players long after the visuals and gimmicky control schemes wear off....is a game of deep substance.

The reason why the Show (and even the NBA 2K8 and 2K9 series) has nailed it is because it created a realistic and deep simulation for the user without sacrificing playability. Playing with different teams and players gives the player a different and unique experience because of how well each player has been crafted to have unique attributes and styles of play.

NBA 2k9, is a huge example of how well the 2K team has captured the essence of player indivuality. At it pays off in spades by creating an immersive and uniquely different experience each time you play the game against different teams.

There used to be a time growing up that my friends and I would religiously play Earl Weaver Baseball on my old Amiga computer...Even after the days that newer games came out with better visuals and sounds. What kept us coming back for more with EW was the variation and distinction between players and teams. It translated so well to the playing experience.

There used to be a time when you would scout out a player's Fielding, Range and Arm strength and Accuracy as much as you would their offensive attributes because you knew that it could have a signifigant impact in the results on the field. Today in 2K8, whether I have a golden glove first basemen with immense range and fielding ability versus some rookie that was just brought up to the bigs, really makes no difference. The game is a victim to what I call the "motion capture factor" The programmers will simply lump groups of players into different motion capture events that really has little or even no bearing on the players actual attributes. They will be mapped to the closest 'match' event and trigger animation number XXX to seem with this event......Baaahh hambug!


I say, going forward, Have the actual ATTRIBUTES determine what animations are triggered and have enough of them to account for all the variations and subtle differences there are in the different players styles and abilities. This is where NBA 2K9 has almost perfected it!

Then you will truly have a mesmerizing baseball experience....if of course you also make for a more engaging Batter/Pitcher interface as well as fixing the CPU STEAL and HIT and RUN issues

[baa7]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

Playing with different teams and players gives the player a different and unique experience because of how well each player has been crafted to have unique attributes and styles of play.

There used to be a time when you would scout out a player's Fielding, Range and Arm strength and Accuracy as much as you would their offensive attributes because you knew that it could have a signifigant impact in the results on the field. Today in 2K8, whether I have a golden glove first basemen with immense range and fielding ability versus some rookie that was just brought up to the bigs, really makes no difference.

In fairness to 2K baseball, The Show suffers from these issues as well. There is little to no difference in players' fielding abilities in The Show. And really, the only thing that differentiates one player from another besides speed is his hitting ratings -- which don't actually make that great a difference either, seeing that hitting is incredibly easy in that game, regardless of who's at the plate.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

In fairness to 2K baseball, The Show suffers from these issues as well. There is little to no difference in players' fielding abilities in The Show. And really, the only thing that differentiates one player from another besides speed is his hitting ratings -- which don't actually make that great a difference either, seeing that hitting is incredibly easy in that game, regardless of who's at the plate.

Good points. I think The Show gets somewhat of a pass on this (generally speaking) though, because it handles the peripheral features so well. The atmospher in The Show screams baseball and the games features and animations translate relatively semlessly into one another. 2K has too many glaring issues and has a hard time masking the more subtle ones because of that (it's like an inspection...the more you find on the surface, the more you dig). I actually like the depth and structure of the ratings in 2K over The Show, but the complete lack of polish across the boad in 2K makes it a tough pill for me to swallow regardless.

[baa7]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

Good points. I think The Show gets somewhat of a pass on this (generally speaking) though, because it handles the peripheral features so well.

I actually like the depth and structure of the ratings in 2K over The Show, but the complete lack of polish across the boad in 2K makes it a tough pill for me to swallow regardless.

I completely agree with both points. I can play The Show for hours and enjoy it, regardless of the issues I mentioned, because the game oozes "baseball". 2K on the other hand, I have a tough time playing for more than a few minutes at a time, it's just so lacking on so many levels.

This is a puzzling thread, in that I keep wondering what "bring the fun back" means. Sure hope that simply means focusing on putting out a game that looks, sounds and of course plays like baseball. In other words, scrap the gimmicks and get back to the basics. We'll see come March I guess.

[Lisa_Bonami]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

I honestly cant remember 2K making a baseball game that truly captured the essence of baseball...even way back to the Sega Genesis days when World Series 2K1, 2K2 and 2K3 came out...I remember all of them had major issues. In fact the last really good baseball game that was extremely fun was Saturn's World Series Baseball! I used to play that for hours on end....I think what captured the essence of enjoyment so much was its fluid controls. There was no motion captured lag. Everything was tightly integrated and smoothly mapped to your gamepad's input.

I think this is one of the major keys that is often overlooked in created a great game. How well the game feels like an extension of your own inputs. Too many of these games today suffer from what I call the "Dragon's Lair" syndrome. Where you never really feel like your moving or tightly controlling all of your player's inputs but rather, you feel as tho your just steering a series of motion captured sequences. There's a sense of lost control and touch with your game when this feeling is too prevelant in the game.

Add this to the fact that when you have different players with all these indivual attributes and skill ratings, your expecting to see a variety of responses when you take control of the different skilled players and you can see why its a real challenge.

NBA 2K9's game absolutely nails that indivuality of player attributes, style, strengths and weaknesses on the court and it really adds to a more organic and fun filled game when you play the different teams in the league. MLB 2K needs to take a page out of their design book and really focus on that element along with giving the player a more fluid and seemless sense of control out in the field.

2K's other biggest weakness has always been their Batter/Pitcher interface...it never really captured that essence, that rhythm the way the SHOW and even EA's last version of MVP and NCAA Baseball did. The game really never captured the sensation of stepping into the box and hearing the seems of a 97mph fastball come whistling in down the pipe. Hard to explain...but the sensation was never captured as fluidly as it was with the other recent games. They need to work this out a little more next year too.

In fairness to 2k, this year's version is probablly the most fun the game has ever been...but I still think it has a sense of disjointedness to its AI, animations and all around gameplay and controls. The whole thing needs some more polish and tighter control

[baa7]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

I honestly cant remember 2K making a baseball game that truly captured the essence of baseball.

I pretty much feel the same way. And I've mentioned that point many times over the years when discussing 2K's last few baseball offerings. Their version of "baseball", isn't "MLB baseball". It's a kind of cartooney, bizarro-world re-imaging of what baseball looks, sounds (a wet bamboo stick slapping someone's arse is NOT what hitting a baseball with a bat sounds like), and of course plays like.

[baa7]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

In fairness to 2k, this year's version is probablly the most fun the game has ever been.

I assume you mean as in "Spin the stick until your thumb falls off in order to throw a simple slider", and "Heck, just swing at anything and don't even bother aiming ('cause aiming don't make no difference anyway)."

Certainly not my idea of fun, let alone realistic gameplay.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Bring the fun back seems to be 2k's theme & since VC

There used to be a time when you would scout out a player's Fielding, Range and Arm strength and Accuracy as much as you would their offensive attributes because you knew that it could have a signifigant impact in the results on the field. Today in 2K8, whether I have a golden glove first basemen with immense range and fielding ability versus some rookie that was just brought up to the bigs, really makes no difference. The game is a victim to what I call the "motion capture factor" The programmers will simply lump groups of players into different motion capture events that really has little or even no bearing on the players actual attributes. They will be mapped to the closest 'match' event and trigger animation number XXX to seem with this event......Baaahh hambug!

I agree with this. However, I think defense gets a little tricky because even a horrible fielder makes the play 95+% of the time. So if you stick the worst defensive thirdbaseman in the league at third, he may make all of the plays for 4 or 5 games and you get impatient people that complain that he's not making errors like he should, even though he may boot the next two balls. People expect to see David Ortiz at 1st and have every ball roll through his legs even though he has a career .989% fielding %. He should boot more balls than other players, but not as many as a little leaguer, but that is what people would expect to see. In 238 games or roughly 1200 innings, he has made 20 errors at 1st base, which is bad for a fist baseman, but not a lot in terms of frequencey. It's one every 60 inning or 6-7 games. So someone could play 5 games and see him make every play and complain he's a gold glover in the game.

Now the fact that he is capable of making JT Snow and Keith Hernandez type plays at first is where I think you hit the nail on the head.

Football games and basketball games have been able to establish the difference in controlling Barry Sanders vs. Jerome Bettis or Steve Nash vs. Shaq. But in baseball, besides maybe the players peak speed and arm strengh, there is no difference between a serviceable player and a gold glover at a position. Ryan Braun has the capabilities of Eric Chavez at third or Manny Ramirez plays like Torii Hunter in the OF.

As you said, rating need to be tied into certain ablitiles, whether it's backhands, barehanding, diving, sliding, digging balls out at first, throwing on the run, etc. There needs to be a noticable difference between great fielders, average fielders and bad fielders.