Updated Rosters--- 2k12

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  • babyfinland
    Just started!
    • Jun 2013
    • 2

    #1456
    Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

    I'm not sure how one would model this, but Jesus Montero was sent to AAA to learn the 1B position, since he stinks at C. In the game he's a decent C.

    Also, it'd be cool to see some more of the Mariners prospects, like Stefan Romero and Julio Morban.

    Comment

    • MarvinOida
      MVP
      • Feb 2012
      • 4859

      #1457
      Really need to get MLB 2K12... These roster based on everyone's opinion = better than 2K13 without a doubt.

      Also, I want to troll TamBeanson1 but I just don't feel like its not the smartest thing.

      Comment

      • vtcrb
        Hall Of Fame
        • Nov 2006
        • 10294

        #1458
        Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

        Originally posted by MarvinOida
        Really need to get MLB 2K12... These roster based on everyone's opinion = better than 2K13 without a doubt.

        Also, I want to troll TamBeanson1 but I just don't feel like its not the smartest thing.

        It has gotten me away from NBA 2k13. LOL. They did a Great job with these.
        NBA 2k18 Roster:
        http://forums.operationsports.com/vt...okies-xboxone/




        Twitter: @VTCRBTEC

        Youtube Channel:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKL...1uva35l4zFEofg

        Roster Editing for Over a Decade

        Comment

        • kb_Bakes
          Rookie
          • Oct 2011
          • 312

          #1459
          Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

          I finally finished the first season in MyPlayer so now I can start playing more quick games. MK, you're awesome. We all know that. We truly do appreciate everything you've done for the OS community. I'm the type of player that can easily get upset when losing to the CPU because let's face it, they tend to cheese a lot. But I will for sure check out the sliders too because I've reached the maturity where losing against the CPU and having a great game is better than winning by 8 runs.

          Comment

          • wudl83
            Pro
            • Jun 2011
            • 627

            #1460
            Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

            Originally posted by mkharsh33
            I use sample Franchise Modes to see how the sim stats play out.
            Sorry to say this but didn't you notice that simulations are more or less random and often are highly influenced by cold and hot streaks so that the basic ratings of the specific player are not as important as one would think?
            When simming a season I see it all the time that bad players get a bunch of homeruns over the course of a season (I had Ryan Flaherty with a power rating of 70 or something like that hitting 37 homeruns in one season). Also some of the good pitchers (regarding OVR/ratings) are always bad in franchise, while bad pitchers turn out to be good in franchise. And so on. Randomness. That's it.
            IMO your method is only time consuming and not helping much, although I see your reasoning behind it. Thank 2k for it.
            No offense, but that's my experience and the experience of many other guys I talked to, too.

            Regarding ratings:
            I do not understand why you don't (didn't) use the projected (and updated) stats of Zips or steamer. That would (have) allow(ed) you to put the ratings in for one time and maybe then adjust them at another time (say midseason). That wouldn't be more time consuming than looking up every player every single day (or something like that).

            And IMO the ERA stat is an incomplete way of rating a pitcher although I know that you need a base where you take the ratings form.

            But there are often games with runners on first and second with 2 outs and the pitcher got called, the BP guy who came in gave up a hit and both runners scored. Those runs count for first pitcher and not the guy who gave up the run scoring hit. In theory the last guy could do this every game and still have an ERA of 0.00.
            In the last game of the Cards vs Giants series last weekend, Lyons gave up 2 runs, then went nearly 7 innings, before he was pulled with runners on first and second. They brought in Choate (loogy) to pitch against Belt (LHB) and Belt hit a double --> both runners scored. You won't see those runs on Choate's card although he was the one to blame (at least more or less ).

            The next problem is that pitchers that do not pitch many innings (especially bullpen guys) are suffering much harder than guys that pitch more innings. Relievers may have one really bad inning where they maybe give up 4 runs in 1 inning, all earned. And maybe they are even fine the next few games, they nevertheless may have a respectively high ERA because of this one inning.
            Remember Craig Kimbrel at the start of the season. Some weeks ago he had a ERA of nearly 4.00. Did the 2 blown saves (or how much it was) make him a bad closer? Surely not, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to cut his era down to 2.xx.
            Again, no offense, just a suggestion or whatever you wanna call it.

            IMO you could even save time when not adjusting ratings on such a high frequency.

            Know what I mean? I did not want to start a debate or an argument, only to clarify it. But when you go with ERA in the first place then Jerome Williams, Mike Leake, Eric Stults and Jason Marquis would all be better pitchers than Matt Cain, David Price or Cole Hamels.

            But if you feel fine doing it the way you are doing it right now, then keep it on.
            Last edited by wudl83; 06-04-2013, 06:49 AM.

            Comment

            • mkharsh33
              Hall Of Fame
              • Nov 2006
              • 12782

              #1461
              Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

              Originally posted by wudl83
              Sorry to say this but didn't you notice that simulations are more or less random and often are highly influenced by cold and hot streaks so that the basic ratings of the specific player are not as important as one would think?
              When simming a season I see it all the time that bad players get a bunch of homeruns over the course of a season (I had Ryan Flaherty with a power rating of 70 or something like that hitting 37 homeruns in one season). Also some of the good pitchers (regarding OVR/ratings) are always bad in franchise, while bad pitchers turn out to be good in franchise. And so on. Randomness. That's it.
              IMO your method is only time consuming and not helping much, although I see your reasoning behind it. Thank 2k for it.
              No offense, but that's my experience and the experience of many other guys I talked to, too.

              Regarding ratings:
              I do not understand why you don't (didn't) use the projected (and updated) stats of Zips or steamer. That would (have) allow(ed) you to put the ratings in for one time and maybe then adjust them at another time (say midseason). That wouldn't be more time consuming than looking up every player every single day (or something like that).

              And IMO the ERA stat is an incomplete way of rating a pitcher although I know that you need a base where you take the ratings form.

              But there are often games with runners on first and second with 2 outs and the pitcher got called, the BP guy who came in gave up a hit and both runners scored. Those runs count for first pitcher and not the guy who gave up the run scoring hit. In theory the last guy could do this every game and still have an ERA of 0.00.
              In the last game of the Cards vs Giants series last weekend, Lyons gave up 2 runs, then went nearly 7 innings, before he was pulled with runners on first and second. They brought in Choate (loogy) to pitch against Belt (LHB) and Belt hit a double --> both runners scored. You won't see those runs on Choate's card although he was the one to blame (at least more or less ).

              The next problem is that pitchers that do not pitch many innings (especially bullpen guys) are suffering much harder than guys that pitch more innings. Relievers may have one really bad inning where they maybe give up 4 runs in 1 inning, all earned. And maybe they are even fine the next few games, they nevertheless may have a respectively high ERA because of this one inning.
              Remember Craig Kimbrel at the start of the season. Some weeks ago he had a ERA of nearly 4.00. Did the 2 blown saves (or how much it was) make him a bad closer? Surely not, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to cut his era down to 2.xx.
              Again, no offense, just a suggestion or whatever you wanna call it.

              IMO you could even save time when not adjusting ratings on such a high frequency.

              Know what I mean? I did not want to start a debate or an argument, only to clarify it. But when you go with ERA in the first place then Jerome Williams, Mike Leake, Eric Stults and Jason Marquis would all be better pitchers than Matt Cain, David Price or Cole Hamels.

              But if you feel fine doing it the way you are doing it right now, then keep it on.
              You are more than welcome to provide a file for all of us to use... I guess I could post a long/lengthy reply to this, but in all honesty, it's just not worth it. (And I think we'd all agree that IN 2013 - yeah, Leake, Stults and Williams DESERVE better ratings than Cain, Price and Hamels. That's the beauty of each season is that new players become great, and sometimes those with success don't play good. If we just rate guys on their track records, then I guess the question is why even put all this work into creating an updated file.) But thanks... And I'd ask we not go down the path we did here a couple weeks ago when you said you weren't interested in this file, and called me out as self-promoting and arrogant. Appreciate it...
              STEELERS INDIANS CELTICS

              Comment

              • wudl83
                Pro
                • Jun 2011
                • 627

                #1462
                Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                Originally posted by mkharsh33
                You are more than welcome to provide a file for all of us to use... I guess I could post a long/lengthy reply to this, but in all honesty, it's just not worth it. (And I think we'd all agree that IN 2013 - yeah, Leake, Stults and Williams DESERVE better ratings than Cain, Price and Hamels. That's the beauty of each season is that new players become great, and sometimes those with success don't play good. If we just rate guys on their track records, then I guess the question is why even put all this work into creating an updated file.) But thanks... And I'd ask we not go down the path we did here a couple weeks ago when you said you weren't interested in this file, and called me out as self-promoting and arrogant. Appreciate it...
                No, Leake, Williams, etc. do not deserve it. Simply because 15-20 games of one season aren't enough to wipe out the past, especially when talking about starting pitchers. When talking about Williams, he has a xfip of 4.18 this season along with an ERA of 2.58. Compare him to Cole Hamels: 3.94 xfip and an 4.86 ERA. Stults has an ERA of 3.74 and a xfip of 4.09. Now please tell me why Williams and Stults have done so much better? There ERA has not only to do with them doing better than Hamels. One simple number is not the evidence. 1/3 into the season numbers often are so damn screwed that they shouldn't be trusted.

                They were simply a) luckier than Hamels and b) as the season progresses you can bet on that Hamels will reduce his ERA while the ERA of the other two will increase. And you can bet on that, simply because the other two haven't shown anything in the past and because of that it is HIGHLY likely that their current performance is a fluke.

                And that is what the updated projections show you. Simple as that. They use the current performance to provide a projection for the future that is based on the past. And more often than not those projections come quite close to reality.

                Look at Pujols - last year he had what? 2 HR in his first 44 games? Was his power gone or what? No it wasn't, as the last two thirds of the season show.

                David Wright had an AVG of .254 in 2011, .283 in 2010 and .304 in 2009. They projected about .280 AVG for him in 2012. In the first half of the season he ended up hitting .350. Was his projection bad? No it wasn't as he proved it himself with hitting .250 in the 2nd half and ending up with a .277 season.

                Right now Jason Marquis has a better ERA than Hamels, should Marquis be considered as the better pitcher? Really? Marquis averages a BB/K ratio of 1:1, he got an xfip of 4.94 and a fip of even 5.90. He was a luckbox in his 11 starts this season.

                Jeremy Hellickson had very good ERAs 2011 and 2012. But his xfip and fip both were waaaay above his ERA which is always an indicator for something being wrong and the pitcher being favored by luck. Only going by ERA Hellickson would have been a top pitcher going into the season. And now what? Mister Hellickson is finally where he belongs to with an ERA of 5.xx.

                But when you don't want to think out of the box, I am fine with it. I don't really care since you do not see suggestions as what they are - suggestions. Otherwise you wouldn't have brought up this personal topic again although I said two times that I don't want to offend anyone.
                Suggestions are there to make something easier or better. And with this suggestion it would (have) be(en) easier for you to edit ratings. It would take away a massive amount of workload.

                And as I said, I can't provide a file for you all because you play on the Xbox and I am a PC user. If you would play 2k12 on the PC then you could download my roster. I did say this multiple times.
                Last edited by wudl83; 06-04-2013, 11:18 AM.

                Comment

                • mkharsh33
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Nov 2006
                  • 12782

                  #1463
                  Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                  Originally posted by wudl83
                  No, Leake, Williams, etc. do not deserve it. Simply because 15-20 games of one season aren't enough to wipe out the past, especially when talking about starting pitchers. When talking about Williams, he has a xfip of 4.18 this season along with an ERA of 2.58. Compare him to Cole Hamels: 3.94 xfip and an 4.86 ERA. Stults has an ERA of 3.74 and a xfip of 4.09. Now please tell me why Williams and Stults have done so much better? There ERA has not only to do with them doing better than Hamels. One simple number is not the evidence. 1/3 into the season numbers often are so damn screwed that they shouldn't be trusted.

                  They were simply a) luckier than Hamels and b) as the season progresses you can bet on that Hamels will reduce his ERA while the ERA of the other two will increase. And you can bet on that, simply because the other two haven't shown anything in the past and because of that it is HIGHLY likely that their current performance is a fluke.

                  And that is what the updated projections show you. Simple as that. They use the current performance to provide a projection for the future that is based on the past. And more often than not those projections come quite close to reality.

                  Look at Pujols - last year he had what? 2 HR in his first 44 games? Was his power gone or what? No it wasn't, as the last two thirds of the season show.

                  David Wright had an AVG of .254 in 2011, .283 in 2010 and .304 in 2009. They projected about .280 AVG for him in 2012. In the first half of the season he ended up hitting .350. Was his projection bad? No it wasn't as he proved it himself with hitting .250 in the 2nd half and ending up with a .277 season.

                  Right now Jason Marquis has a better ERA than Hamels, should Marquis be considered as the better pitcher? Really? Marquis averages a BB/K ratio of 1:1, he got an xfip of 4.94 and a fip of even 5.90. He was a luckbox in his 11 starts this season.

                  Jeremy Hellickson had very good ERAs 2011 and 2012. But his xfip and fip both were waaaay above his ERA which is always an indicator for something being wrong and the pitcher being favored by luck. Only going by ERA Hellickson would have been a top pitcher going into the season. And now what? Mister Hellickson is finally where he belongs to with an ERA of 5.xx.

                  But when you don't want to think out of the box, I am fine with it. I don't really care since you do not see suggestions as what they are - suggestions. Otherwise you wouldn't have brought up this personal topic again although I said two times that I don't want to offend anyone.
                  Suggestions are there to make something easier or better. And with this suggestion it would (have) be(en) easier for you to edit ratings. It would take away a massive amount of workload.

                  And as I said, I can't provide a file for you all because you play on the Xbox and I am a PC user. If you would play 2k12 on the PC then you could download my roster. I did say this multiple times.
                  - if you want "projected rosters" then use the opening day file. It was built off of LAST YEAR'S final statistics. It was Bretsky who began this process and used that as his base.

                  - if you want "living rosters" then use the current files. They are built on where players are at the moment. The ratings are adjusted accordingly as the season stats progress. If Hamels or Price finally get it together, the ratings adjustments will reflect such. If Leake or Williams falter (or Pat Corbin) then those will be noted as well. There is a HUMAN element to this: sometimes projections don't always play out. Why unfairly punish a guy (say, Segura) for having a great season thus far and reward (say, Price) for having a terrible season? You do understand that projections don't always play out, correct? But when things change, as stated, the file is then updated to reflect that. Yes, it takes time, but it's also fun to see how those fluctuate (as in the case of Marte - PIT - who has seen his recent early success falter a bit). Hence the term "LIVING" rosters...

                  I'm having a hard time understanding your objections to what we are doing here with this project. The opening day file is more for Franchise Mode because it has a more "projected" element to it. But for those who like to play the current situation out, then these are fun.

                  I think that's the problem here: this isn't life or death...it's about having FUN. And though I can understand the posts here that call for some scientific lab experiment in putting these rosters together, it's still the fun factor we're looking for...
                  Last edited by mkharsh33; 06-04-2013, 11:28 AM.
                  STEELERS INDIANS CELTICS

                  Comment

                  • wudl83
                    Pro
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 627

                    #1464
                    Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                    Originally posted by mkharsh33
                    I'm having a hard time understanding your objections to what we are doing here with this project. The opening day file is more for Franchise Mode because it has a more "projected" element to it. But for those who like to play the current situation out, then these are fun.
                    But what I wanted to say is that the current situation can never be isolated. The Mike Trout of the start of the season is the same Mike Trout of now. But the Mike Trout of now is out of is hitting slump, which doesn't mean that while he was in his slump, he was a bad player.
                    Originally posted by mkharsh33
                    I think that's the problem here: this isn't life or death...it's about having FUN. And though I can understand the posts here that call for some scientific lab experiment in putting these rosters together, it's still the fun factor we're looking for...
                    But when you first say you use the current performance you can not erase the "scientific lab".
                    And that's why I said you can do what ya want, but I simply wanted to suggest something how you would not have to edit a massive amount of ratings on a regular basis.
                    Editing ratings on about 2 or 3 times per season (let's say season start, all-star break and september) is way less work then updating the ratings all the time.
                    And for that my suggestion would have been to use projections, because they...project.
                    But again: you can do what you want and I didn't want to criticize anything, it is simply my opinion.

                    Comment

                    • mkharsh33
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Nov 2006
                      • 12782

                      #1465
                      Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                      We appreciate your opinion. But again, I'm trying to understand your point. Trout is the perfect example of this. I didn't start doing the re-ratings until around 3 weeks into the season. I was cautious with many of them because, yeah, we've seen this stuff before. As in the case of Trout, his re-ratings have been reflected to show his strong play. But eventually (and we're now in June) there SHOULD be adjustments being made because of how a player is performing. And this will CONTINUE throughout the season... I think we both would agree that it's POSSIBLE that some guys might never turn it around this year (see: Toronto Blue Jays).

                      Also, I think WAY TOO much stock is put into "overall" ratings in 2K games. Those overall numbers get blown up too big. Yeah, they matter to a small degree because it helps note the pecking order of their success, but you can have a player with a good overall rating but still have many deficiencies to his game. And the defensive ratings also raise a player's overall ratings too. As stated here just a few posts ago, Hechavarria (MIA) is a perfect example of this. His hitting is pathetic, but he is a speed guy with a solid glove. Someone will look at his overall rating and suggest it should be lowered. But until they understand that the defensive AND speed ratings raise a player's overall rating, they won't understand.

                      I think we're both saying the same thing here - it's that we're saying it a bit differently with different concepts of developing the player ratings...
                      STEELERS INDIANS CELTICS

                      Comment

                      • wudl83
                        Pro
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 627

                        #1466
                        Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                        Originally posted by mkharsh33
                        We appreciate your opinion. But again, I'm trying to understand your point. Trout is the perfect example of this. I didn't start doing the re-ratings until around 3 weeks into the season. I was cautious with many of them because, yeah, we've seen this stuff before. As in the case of Trout, his re-ratings have been reflected to show his strong play. But eventually (and we're now in June) there SHOULD be adjustments being made because of how a player is performing. And this will CONTINUE throughout the season... I think we both would agree that it's POSSIBLE that some guys might never turn it around this year (see: Toronto Blue Jays).

                        Also, I think WAY TOO much stock is put into "overall" ratings in 2K games. Those overall numbers get blown up too big. Yeah, they matter to a small degree because it helps note the pecking order of their success, but you can have a player with a good overall rating but still have many deficiencies to his game. And the defensive ratings also raise a player's overall ratings too. As stated here just a few posts ago, Hechavarria (MIA) is a perfect example of this. His hitting is pathetic, but he is a speed guy with a solid glove. Someone will look at his overall rating and suggest it should be lowered. But until they understand that the defensive AND speed ratings raise a player's overall rating, they won't understand.

                        I think we're both saying the same thing here - it's that we're saying it a bit differently with different concepts of developing the player ratings...
                        Yeah as I said im totally fine with it as long as YOU are satisfied. My only goal was to give you a pointer on how you could safe work time since I read that you are updating ratings so often. And as I do rosters myself I am one of the few persons who really nows how time consuming this thing really is.
                        There are different opinions, different ways of doing something. But again, as long as you are satisfied keep on going. Did not want to start an argument.



                        EDIT
                        Ah one last thing. The OVR system of 2k is really crappy. Some attributes/ratings are really way too important to the OVR. You only have to look at CFs with good range, they nearly always will have a rating above 70 or 75, only because of their range and speed. I have numerous CFs in the minors that have good gloves and range according to their scouting report, but shouldn't be as good as the OVR wants to tell us. The OVR should definately be calculated in another way, IMO.
                        Last edited by wudl83; 06-04-2013, 12:03 PM.

                        Comment

                        • themistro24
                          Banned
                          • Feb 2012
                          • 204

                          #1467
                          Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                          Originally posted by wudl83
                          No, Leake, Williams, etc. do not deserve it. Simply because 15-20 games of one season aren't enough to wipe out the past, especially when talking about starting pitchers. When talking about Williams, he has a xfip of 4.18 this season along with an ERA of 2.58. Compare him to Cole Hamels: 3.94 xfip and an 4.86 ERA. Stults has an ERA of 3.74 and a xfip of 4.09. Now please tell me why Williams and Stults have done so much better? There ERA has not only to do with them doing better than Hamels. One simple number is not the evidence. 1/3 into the season numbers often are so damn screwed that they shouldn't be trusted.

                          They were simply a) luckier than Hamels and b) as the season progresses you can bet on that Hamels will reduce his ERA while the ERA of the other two will increase. And you can bet on that, simply because the other two haven't shown anything in the past and because of that it is HIGHLY likely that their current performance is a fluke.

                          And that is what the updated projections show you. Simple as that. They use the current performance to provide a projection for the future that is based on the past. And more often than not those projections come quite close to reality.

                          Look at Pujols - last year he had what? 2 HR in his first 44 games? Was his power gone or what? No it wasn't, as the last two thirds of the season show.

                          David Wright had an AVG of .254 in 2011, .283 in 2010 and .304 in 2009. They projected about .280 AVG for him in 2012. In the first half of the season he ended up hitting .350. Was his projection bad? No it wasn't as he proved it himself with hitting .250 in the 2nd half and ending up with a .277 season.

                          Right now Jason Marquis has a better ERA than Hamels, should Marquis be considered as the better pitcher? Really? Marquis averages a BB/K ratio of 1:1, he got an xfip of 4.94 and a fip of even 5.90. He was a luckbox in his 11 starts this season.

                          Jeremy Hellickson had very good ERAs 2011 and 2012. But his xfip and fip both were waaaay above his ERA which is always an indicator for something being wrong and the pitcher being favored by luck. Only going by ERA Hellickson would have been a top pitcher going into the season. And now what? Mister Hellickson is finally where he belongs to with an ERA of 5.xx.

                          But when you don't want to think out of the box, I am fine with it. I don't really care since you do not see suggestions as what they are - suggestions. Otherwise you wouldn't have brought up this personal topic again although I said two times that I don't want to offend anyone.
                          Suggestions are there to make something easier or better. And with this suggestion it would (have) be(en) easier for you to edit ratings. It would take away a massive amount of workload.

                          And as I said, I can't provide a file for you all because you play on the Xbox and I am a PC user. If you would play 2k12 on the PC then you could download my roster. I did say this multiple times.
                          Sure sure piggyback on my XFIP posts. kidding.

                          Comment

                          • wudl83
                            Pro
                            • Jun 2011
                            • 627

                            #1468
                            Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                            Originally posted by themistro24
                            Sure sure piggyback on my XFIP posts. kidding.
                            Only wanted to support your opinion.
                            But now everything is said. At least I think so. ^^

                            Comment

                            • BoiSEAn
                              Just started!
                              • Jun 2013
                              • 7

                              #1469
                              Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                              I just wanted to chime in and say that I think themisto and wudl83 have some good points, though I understand if you don't want to change a system that's working for you.
                              Instead of using Baseball Reference data, you could use ZiPS or Steamer updated projections, which include what's already happened on the field as well as adjustments to pre-season projections. It seems like they've already done all the math, so you wouldn't need to make as many judgment calls yourself. (I can't post a link, but Fangraphs constantly updates both projections and lets you sort by teams as well as positions.)

                              Comment

                              • mkharsh33
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Nov 2006
                                • 12782

                                #1470
                                Re: Updated Rosters--- 2k12

                                Though I appreciate the input, I live by a certain adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

                                The system is working. Again, if you want to start a franchise mode - use the official opening day file provided on 2K Share (but please note that I've added around 70 more players since that file was uploaded). If you want a "play now" file, then grab the daily updates that are uploaded at 2K Share and here as an offline file.

                                I don't mind doing this... And I'd personally rather play with a file that is updated daily instead of using "projections" that may or may not fall into place. But thanks... I will continue to work on this provided I have time or the thinking is that what I'm doing isn't working....

                                BTW, a NEW FILE was uploaded at 2K Share today - June 5.
                                STEELERS INDIANS CELTICS

                                Comment

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