Roger Clemens...

[Stu]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Bro....that was nine years ago. It's time to let it go.

Never

[SportsTop]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Again Clemens pitches an outstanding game and his team puts a big goose-egg up on the scoreboard for him.

The Astros are now averaging a paltry 1.8 runs per game in which Clemens starts. He's lost three 1-0 games.

This has crossed over from being sad to being totally pathetic.

[SPTO]

Re: Roger Clemens...

I have a feeling he's gonna break the record for least wins for a Cy Young Award winner.

[dales]

Re: Roger Clemens...

I have a feeling he's gonna break the record for least wins for a Cy Young Award winner.

He really deserves it. A WHIP under 1.00; a BAA of less than .200 and an ERA of 1.30. He also has a K/BB of 3.76 (79/21) and on top of all that he's hitting .273.

It's a real shame that he's receiving by far the least amount of run support of any starting pitcher in the league.

I'm sure at seasons end some Clemens critics will look at his record and say, "see, he should have retired last year."

Wouldn't it be amazing if he returned next year and continued with the same success. I'd really love to see him hit the 350 win mark and he's going to need at least another year after this to do it.

[dieselboy]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Harang dominated him today.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Harang dominated him today.

"Dominated" is a pretty strong word for someone who pitched one less inning while giving up one more hit.

Sure Clemens gave up the 2 runs, but it was on one mistake pitch. Who knows how many mistake pitches Harang got away with against the Astros anemic offense.

[kweiss]

Re: Roger Clemens...

He really deserves it. A WHIP under 1.00; a BAA of less than .200 and an ERA of 1.80. He also has a K/BB of 3.76 (79/21) and on top of all that he's hitting .273.

It's a real shame that he's receiving by far the least amount of run support of any starting pitcher in the league.

I'm sure at seasons end some Clemens critics will look at his record and say, "see, he should have retired last year."

Wouldn't it be amazing if he returned next year and continued with the same success. I'd really love to see him hit the 350 win mark and he's going to need at least another year after this to do it.

Tell that to Randy Johnson about last year's Cy Young.

Johnson's 2004 Season:

WHIP: 0.90
BAA: .197
ERA: 2.60
K/BB: 6.59 (290/44)

You can't win a Cy Young unless you have the most worthless stat in baseball.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Tell that to Randy Johnson about last year's Cy Young.

Johnson's 2004 Season:

WHIP: 0.90
BAA: .197
ERA: 2.60
K/BB: 6.59 (290/44)

You can't win a Cy Young unless you have the most worthless stat in baseball.

It's not totally worthless. It still provides a barometer as to how often a pitcher keeps his team in a game, especially over multiple years worth of data.

I won't say it is the most important stat for a pitcher, but still far from worthless.

[kweiss]

Re: Roger Clemens...

It's not totally worthless. It still provides a barometer as to how often a pitcher keeps his team in a game, especially over multiple years worth of data.

I won't say it is the most important stat for a pitcher, but still far from worthless.

And allowing less then 3 runs a game isn't keeping your team in the game? Everything that is told by a win can be told by ERA. A win is a measure of how much run support a pitcher gets, not how well he does his job.

[SportsTop]

Re: Roger Clemens...

And allowing less then 3 runs a game isn't keeping your team in the game? Everything that is told by a win can be told by ERA. A win is a measure of how much run support a pitcher gets, not how well he does his job.

I never said allowing 3 runs a game and keeping your team in the game isn't important. There is a stat for that....the quality start. Wins is a good stat to take into account when looked at with other statistics such as ERA, WHIP, and IP.

[kweiss]

Re: Roger Clemens...

I never said allowing 3 runs a game and keeping your team in the game isn't important. There is a stat for that....the quality start. Wins is a good stat to take into account when looked at with other statistics such as ERA, WHIP, and IP.

I see where you're coming from.

However, I don't see where you would need to take into account a win to measure how well a pitcher performs, when you already have ERA, WHIP, etc. What relationship does a pitcher's offense scoring runs have on the quality of performance from the pitcher?

Simply put, a pitcher's job is to keep the other team from scoring runs. When trying to evaluate the performance of a pitcher, if you already know that a pitcher gave up 2 runs in 9 innings, does it matter that his offense happened to score 5 runs in the game? What relevance does that have to the pitchers performance?

[SportsTop]

Re: Roger Clemens...

I see where you're coming from.

However, I don't see where you would need to take into account a win to measure how well a pitcher performs, when you already have ERA, WHIP, etc. What relationship does a pitcher's offense scoring runs have on the quality of performance from the pitcher?

Simply put, a pitcher's job is to keep the other team from scoring runs. When trying to evaluate the performance of a pitcher, if you already know that a pitcher gave up 2 runs in 9 innings, does it matter that his offense happened to score 5 runs in the game? What relevance does that have to the pitchers performance?

This explanation is meant to answer your question in its entirety, but it does offer one perspective:

A pitcher gives up 3 runs in the first inning. The game goes on through the sixth when his team finally breaks through for five runs giving the starting pitcher the lead. The pitcher's line may read 7 IP, 3 ER, 7 H, 7 SO, 3 BB. What isn't shown by the boxscore is how he kept his team in the game by regaining his composure after the first inning and shutdown the opposing team down the rest of the game. By staying mentally focused he allowed his team the opportunity to win the game.

[dieselboy]

Re: Roger Clemens...

"Dominated" is a pretty strong word for someone who pitched one less inning while giving up one more hit.

Sure Clemens gave up the 2 runs, but it was on one mistake pitch. Who knows how many mistake pitches Harang got away with against the Astros anemic offense.

Did Clemens have a solid outing? Yes, a quality start. Did Aaron Harang pitch better? Yes.

[deeman11747]

Re: Roger Clemens...

Did Clemens have a solid outing? Yes, a quality start. Did Aaron Harang pitch better? Yes.

I think you're taking it out of context though. The real question is:

Was Cincy's offense bad against Clemens' performance? Yes. Was Houston's offense worse against Harang? Yes.

[kweiss]

Re: Roger Clemens...

This explanation is meant to answer your question in its entirety, but it does offer one perspective:

A pitcher gives up 3 runs in the first inning. The game goes on through the sixth when his team finally breaks through for five runs giving the starting pitcher the lead. The pitcher's line may read 7 IP, 3 ER, 7 H, 7 SO, 3 BB. What isn't shown by the boxscore is how he kept his team in the game by regaining his composure after the first inning and shutdown the opposing team down the rest of the game. By staying mentally focused he allowed his team the opportunity to win the game.

But this still isn't getting to my question. The bottom line is that he pitched 7 innings, 3 runs. What makes his performance any better then another pitcher who also pitched 7 innings and allowed 3 runs in the first inning, but his offense couldn't get it done.

The win stat is meant to tell you that the first pitcher had a better performance then the second pitcher. They both accomplished the same task, but how is it fair to say that one pitcher had a better game because his offense broke through in the 6th?