Do you like Designated Hitters?

[dce1228]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Ugh, the DH sucks... a special postion shouldn't be made for one-dimensional players... it's just friggin stupid... it panders to mediocrity. If the DH was eliminated and pitchers HAD to bat they'd put in more work at it and get better.

I apologize for the shallowness of this post but people are just pulling things out of their asses at this point... here's another pulled out the *** point...

With the DH headhunter pitchers don't have to face the consequences of a trip up to bat... but without ut they do... so, not having the DH, is keeping it real... and you want to keep it real.

Frankly, I don't need to watch Giambi hit until he's 39... I'm good.

[Vince]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

The DH's of today aren't very good. Frank Thomas, Harold Baines, Edgar Martinez, Cecil Fielder,Canseco were all great players who DH'ed in the 90's. It seemed like the DH was meant to bat in an RBI spot, now I see DH's batting 8th or 9th. Apart from Ortiz, Erubiel Durazo and Giambi, there aren't that many good DH's anymore.

But being a fan of an AL team, I don't have a problem with it as it allows the Manager to give a rest to an everyday player, but still have his bat in the lineup.

[Stu]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Ugh, the DH sucks... a special postion shouldn't be made for one-dimensional players... it's just friggin stupid... it panders to mediocrity. If the DH was eliminated and pitchers HAD to bat they'd put in more work at it and get better.

The NL pitchers have to bat and do they put more work into getting better? No. It just doesn't make sense in modern baseball when elite pitchers are few and far between. Having them work to get better just isn't worth the risks involved.

As far as the headhunting, the AL teams do a pretty good job of policing that. You don't think a hitter who is beaned in retaliation doesn't go to his teammates and say "hey, stop throwing at people because I'm the one getting beaned because of it."

I love how you say people are pulling points out of their ***, but I havn't heard one decent argument against the DH, other than the fact that people simply don't like it.

[dce1228]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

The NL pitchers have to bat and do they put more work into getting better? No. It just doesn't make sense in modern baseball when elite pitchers are few and far between. Having them work to get better just isn't worth the risks involved.

Again, as is most of your points, they are just a matter of your opinion. What pitchers will work at is bunting, reading the signs, doing small things... LIKE PLAYING THE GAME OF BASEBALL THE RIGHT FRIGGIN WAY IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED. Whether or not it's worth the risk is irrelevant... without risk there is no reward, there's risk everywhere...

As far as the headhunting, the AL teams do a pretty good job of policing that. You don't think a hitter who is beaned in retaliation doesn't go to his teammates and say "hey, stop throwing at people because I'm the one getting beaned because of it."

No, I don't... do you mean to tell me that a pitcher will sacrifice the inside of the plate because one of his hitters doesn't want to get brushed back... nonsense... any competitive AL pitcher will tell that hitter to shove it...

I love how you say people are pulling points out of their ***, but I havn't heard one decent argument against the DH, other than the fact that people simply don't like it.

Correction: YOU ARE NOT ALLOWING YOURSELF TO HEAR ONE GOOD REASON AS TO WHY THE DH IS LAME... by my count there's been plenty, but you have a video arcade concept of the game and that can't be changed... there are obviously purests among us who prefer bunts and sacrifices and hitting behind the runner to swinging from the heels and flipping your bat in the air when you finally manage to crush one...

[Stu]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Again, as is most of your points, they are just a matter of your opinion. What pitchers will work at is bunting, reading the signs, doing small things... LIKE PLAYING THE GAME OF BASEBALL THE RIGHT FRIGGIN WAY IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED. Whether or not it's worth the risk is irrelevant... without risk there is no reward, there's risk everywhere...

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I have no problem with bunting, but I do have a problem with knowing a guy is going to bunt, often poorly, every time through the order. That isn't strategy.

No, I don't... do you mean to tell me that a pitcher will sacrifice the inside of the plate because one of his hitters doesn't want to get brushed back... nonsense... any competitive AL pitcher will tell that hitter to shove it...

You were talking about headhunting, not pitching inside. They are too very different things. Do you really think NL pitchers stop pitching inside because of the threat of getting beaned? This is a non-issue in relation the DH.

Correction: YOU ARE NOT ALLOWING YOURSELF TO HEAR ONE GOOD REASON AS TO WHY THE DH IS LAME... by my count there's been plenty, but you have a video arcade concept of the game and that can't be changed... there are obviously purests among us who prefer bunts and sacrifices and hitting behind the runner to swinging from the heels and flipping your bat in the air when you finally manage to crush one...

What video arcade concept of the game do I have? That I prefer watching a player who knows how to hit up there instead of a guy who doesn't? You are completely changing the subject of this argument. I have no problem with bunting, sac hits, moving runners along, etc. I have a problem with watching pitchers bat. Thats all. If that means I'm not a purist then so be it.

[LetsGoPitt]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Okay. Here's an argument. The main comment made in favor of the DH is that it increases offense, because when the pitcher bats, it's almost always an out. Sorry, but the numbers just don't bear that out.

If you combine the 2003 and 2004 seasons (since you accused me of not having a big enough sample size in my post about averages -- something I readily concede), here's how it breaks down:

AL - 22391 runs scored
NL - 23963 runs scored

To figure out the total number of games played in that time:

16 teams(NL) or 14 teams(AL) * 162 games * 2 seasons

AL - 4536 games
NL - 5184 games

So the total number of runs scored per game in each league is

AL - 22,391 runs / 4536 games = 4.94 runs/game
NL - 23,963 runs / 5184 games = 4.62 runs/game

WOW....so the DH does help! In fact, teams in the AL are likely to score one additional run EVERY 3 GAMES. That's certainly worth not having the pitcher bat, and thus taking 80% of the strategy out of the game.

Face it, the DH is a useless rule that does nothing but extend the careers of players who should have retired years ago (see Bernie Williams). To be a professional ball player, you should be required to participate in all facets of the game: hitting, fielding, and throwing/pitching. If you can't do that, you shouldn't play. They don't have designated fielders for those people who never make errors, but can't hit worth a darn, so why should they let people play who can hit but not field? Or to refer to another sport, how about basketball? Maybe we should have a designated free thrower, so when people like Shaq are fouled, they can have someone else shoot their free throws. After all, it's just boring to watch Shaq shoot free throws. I mean, he's going to miss most of the time.

[Vince]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

They don't have designated fielders for those people who never make errors, but can't hit worth a darn, so why should they let people play who can hit but not field?

I'm not disagreeing with everything you say, but you need to score more runs than the other opponent to win(duh). And because of that, guys who can pound 30, drive in 90 and get on base at a high clip should/will still find a spot in the league.

[Stu]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Very good points LetsGoPitt.

First, I'm going to dispute the fact that having a DH removes 80% of the strategy from the game. I really think the strategy aspect is completely overrated. The only real differences are when to pinch hit for a pitcher, which is usually a no brainer. I think a lot of people assume that AL teams don't utilize the bunt, hit and run or stolen bases which is completely false. Granted, there are teams like the Red Sox and A's that don't do these things often, but that's more an organizational philosophy rather than a product of having the DH.

The stats you posted are certainly compelling but I'm going to fall back on what Vince said, regarding the fact that there are very few good DH's in the game right now. This is something that could be related to the new steroid testing, but is a trend that probably won't last. A lot of guys like Frank Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, etc who are traditionally DH's just havn't been healthy this year, for whatever reason. Maybe they're old and shouldn't be playing anymore, but man do I still enjoy watching Frank Thomas hit.

Also, I'm not convinced your stats tell the whole story. I'd love to see a comparison of the AL DH's stats vs NL Pitchers, but that is way beyond my level of statistical ability.

[LetsGoPitt]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

I'm not disagreeing with everything you say, but you need to score more runs than the other opponent to win(duh). And because of that, guys who can pound 30, drive in 90 and get on base at a high clip should/will still find a spot in the league.

Problem is, most of the DHs in the league don't do any of those three things.

[Stu]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Problem is, most of the DHs in the league don't do any of those three things.

But they actually do. Here's a list of the 12 DH's with over 100 at bats. They are listed in order of most at bats to least.

Ibanez .289/.356/.455 15HR 65RBI
Ortiz .297/.396/.573 28HR 99RBI
Young .262/.319/.472 18HR 56RBI
Sweeney .305/.346/.544 18HR 62RBI
Dellucci .266/.396/.524 21HR 45RBI
Hafner .313/.420/.567 18HR 66RBI
Everett .264/.315/.469 17HR 67RBI
Giambi .284/.447/.547 21HR 51RBI
LeCroy .262/.349/.435 10HR 29RBI
Phelps .266/.328/.424 5HR 26RBI
Durazo .237/.305/.368 4HR 16RBI
Thomas .219/.315/.590 12HR 26RBI

Those are some pretty impressive numbers if you ask me.

[dce1228]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

But they actually do. Here's a list of the 12 DH's with over 100 at bats. They are listed in order of most at bats to least.

Ibanez .289/.356/.455 15HR 65RBI
Ortiz .297/.396/.573 28HR 99RBI
Young .262/.319/.472 18HR 56RBI
Sweeney .305/.346/.544 18HR 62RBI
Dellucci .266/.396/.524 21HR 45RBI
Hafner .313/.420/.567 18HR 66RBI
Everett .264/.315/.469 17HR 67RBI
Giambi .284/.447/.547 21HR 51RBI
LeCroy .262/.349/.435 10HR 29RBI
Phelps .266/.328/.424 5HR 26RBI
Durazo .237/.305/.368 4HR 16RBI
Thomas .219/.315/.590 12HR 26RBI

Those are some pretty impressive numbers if you ask me.

And some pretty unimpressive baseball players. If I have to chose between a 4 to 3 game with pitchers hitting and 80% more strategy or a 5 to 4 game with these one dimensional guys playing the game and 80% less strategy than I'd... I'd just go watch Nascar or something.

Wait, don't you have two White Sox in there... do they play two DHs??

[dce1228]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

But they actually do. Here's a list of the 12 DH's with over 100 at bats. They are listed in order of most at bats to least.

Ibanez .289/.356/.455 15HR 65RBI
Ortiz .297/.396/.573 28HR 99RBI
Young .262/.319/.472 18HR 56RBI
Sweeney .305/.346/.544 18HR 62RBI
Dellucci .266/.396/.524 21HR 45RBI
Hafner .313/.420/.567 18HR 66RBI
Everett .264/.315/.469 17HR 67RBI
Giambi .284/.447/.547 21HR 51RBI
LeCroy .262/.349/.435 10HR 29RBI
Phelps .266/.328/.424 5HR 26RBI
Durazo .237/.305/.368 4HR 16RBI
Thomas .219/.315/.590 12HR 26RBI

Those are some pretty impressive numbers if you ask me.

What's great about the non-DH game is you have to choose when you're going to sub your pitcher and bring one of these 1 dimensional guys in to pinch-hit...

You've gotten 6 innings and 96 pitches out of your starting pitcher... there are runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, 2 to 1 game... do you let your pitcher take a swing or sub in Erubial Durazo to take a hack... your bullpen was used up last game... what do you do...

In the AL game there is none of this strategy. If anything, in the NL game, you can almost better utilize your big bat off the bench because you can CHOOSE when he hits, rather than have him already set in the line-up batting sixth... there's just so much more to the NL game.

[deeman11747]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Again, as is most of your points, they are just a matter of your opinion. What pitchers will work at is bunting, reading the signs, doing small things... LIKE PLAYING THE GAME OF BASEBALL THE RIGHT FRIGGIN WAY IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED. Whether or not it's worth the risk is irrelevant... without risk there is no reward, there's risk everywhere...

Why do people insist on keep saying that "baseball being played the right way" only involves bunting and small ball as you are saying?

What evidence is there that hitting HR's in not the right way to play baseball? What is the right way to play baseball? Surely you must know.

Personally, I think baseball players should have to play both ways.... but like Cam has said... baseball is meant to be watched and played for fun. What fun is there watching the pitcher go up and striking out with no one on base on three pitches. I mean I like the strategy involved in the NL... but the DH makes the game more exciting.

[Vince]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

Why do people insist on keep saying that "baseball being played the right way" only involves bunting and small ball as you are saying?

Thank NL purists like Joe Morgan...

Remember...

THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE/THINGS RESPECT THE GAME AND PLAY SAID GAME THE RIGHT WAY:

Pete Rose (and Presumably, All People Who Have Gambled on the Game)
Derek Jeter
David Eckstein/Scott Podsednik/Any Small or Fast Player
Any Member of Any Championship Team Ever
Anyone Who Knows How to Win
Anyone Who Played Before 1975
Bunts
Not Trying to Do Too Much With It
Steals
Productive Outs
Fast People
Good-Fielding SS
Guys Who Get Their Uniforms Dirty
Pitches Who Throw Hard and/or Stare Menacingly at Batters When on the Mound
Bench Coaches ("Good Baseball Men")
Intangibles
Awareness of the Game
GMs Who Are Former Players
Guys With Junk on Their Helmets Specifically Along With Perhaps Other Parts of Their Uniforms (Trot Nixon Corollary)
Captains (See Jeter, Derek and Varitek, Jason)
Hit and Runs
The National League
Being Aggressive
Ron Gardenhire
Jack McKeon
Desire
Guts
Guile
"Catalysts"
Table-Setters
Chemistry
Gold Gloves
Veterans

THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE/THINGS DO NOT RESPECT THE GAME, PLUS THEY PLAY SAID GAME IN A WEIRD, INCORRECT WAY:

Steroid Users (Evil)
Adam Dunn
Mark Bellhorn
The Oakland Athletics
Computers
Walks
Home Runs
Trying to Do Too Much With It
Pitch Counts
Large Men Who Clog Up the Basepaths
On-Base Percentage
Anyone Who Uses Numbers to Make Baseball Arguments
Young GMs
Guys Who Hit .304 Last Year But Who Are Only Hitting .278 This Year (!)
Guys Who Don't Intentionally Always Hit the Ball to the Right Side of the Infield With a Runner on Second and No Outs No Matter What the Game Situation Is
Slow People
Designated Hitters
No-Field 1B
Striking Out Too Much
Chokers
Head Cases
VORP, WARP, Win Shares, UZR

http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: Do you like Designated Hitters?

I like the DH and it should stay in the game.

The pitcher shouldn't be allowed to hit because it's often just a wasted out (especially true if there's nobody on base).