Modern McCarthy-ism...

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  • Hootiefish
    Pro
    • Aug 2002
    • 933

    #1

    Modern McCarthy-ism...

    Today's HOF got me thinking about the trend that has been sweeping through baseball the last year or so. The Steroid Hunt is this era's Salem Witch Trials or Red Scare (except, obviously, much, much less serious).

    Baseball writers, pundits, fans, and talking heads are condemning players for something that they have either a) not been convicted of, or b) wasn't illegal as outlined by baseball rules to begin with.

    It should not be about what we believe happened. It should be about what evidence that we have to support what we believe happened. McGwire never tested positive (if he was even tested at all). Bonds has never tested positive. Clemens has never tested positive. Why is that not enough? I realize that sounds naive, but in a country whose legal system is based (supposedly) upon the fact that someone is innocent until a preponderance of evidence supports their guilt, it should be enough.

    Big Mac did not get voted into the HOF simply based upon the fact that he looked as though he took steroids. Does anyone realize how ridiculous that sounds? He looked as though he broke the "rules" (which, again, did not exist at the time). His look will keep him out of the Hall. Crazy.

    The worst part is, the people that turned a blind eye to the problem in the '90's and lauded these "homerun heroes" are leading the charge against them today. As though their demonizing of the players today will absolve them of their sin of shoddy journalism. As though destroying a player's reputation based on suspicion will make up for all of the tell-tale signs that they missed when the problem was at its zenith.

    When does it stop? When do we, as fans, say enough is enough and stop questioning everyone who's numbers jump, or who gets into better shape, or who develops backne (okay, bad example)? When do we as fans place the blame at the foot of the baseball executives who benefited from the Summer of '98, who failed to stop the growing problem. When do we as fans stop suspecting every player who was unfortunate enough to play during the "steroid era" and accept the fact that we cannot rewrite history, and that we must move forward.

    I am not naive enough to believe that McGwire, Bonds, et al did not use steroids. I simply believe that baseball did not care enough about the problem until 2003-2004 to do anything about, so neither should I. I am not going to keep guys out of a HOF simply because I suspect they cheated. That is, simply put, not fair. I will, however, keep guys out that I know did cheat, as laid out in the most recent rules, as proven through evidence (Palmeiro) or admission.
    Last edited by Hootiefish; 01-09-2007, 04:46 PM. Reason: Grammar
    Overall satisfaction also makes the decline!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • caseyd
    D*d y** g*t th* m*m*?
    • Jul 2002
    • 2367

    #2
    Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

    In some ways though, McGwire shot himself in the foot. If he had said yes or no instead of no comment, we might not be having this discussion, or at least he would have gotten more votes. He made himself look guilty by the way he responded to everything.
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    • mickj
      Pro
      • Jun 2003
      • 565

      #3
      Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

      The worst part is, the people that turned a blind eye to the problem in the '90's and lauded these "homerun heroes" are leading the charge against them today. As though their demonizing of the players today will absolve them of their sin of shoddy journalism.
      the even worse part of it is that they ignore other cheating in the game. Where was this WE MUST PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME attitude when Gaylord Perry was up for hall of fame voting? Granted that was a long time ago, but many of the writers who voted back then are still voting i would think.

      Comment

      • Knight165
        *ll St*r
        • Feb 2003
        • 24964

        #4
        Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

        The problem is...you are mixing RIGHTS with PRIVELEGES here.

        You are using the "innocent until proven guilty" rhetoric.......when none of these guys are being convicted/accused of a CRIME...in that case to simply deny them their rights would be wrong...however they don't have the RIGHT to be in the Hall of Fame...it's a privelege and a court of law does not decide who gets into the Hall. The Hall feels that it must have a certain standard and I'm sure the writers who vote know how the Hall feels.
        It's much like your drivers license. You don't have the RIGHT to have a drivers license you have the PRIVELEGE to drive. That's why...if you refuse to submit to a sobriety test(NOT involving an accident...that's a whole different matter) you will automatically lose your license in most states. Even if you manage to come up negative(hours later when you are finally processed) you will still have your license revoked...even though you might have actually escaped a penalty.

        M.K.
        Knight165
        All gave some. Some gave all. 343

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        • BigRed
          MVP
          • May 2003
          • 1683

          #5
          Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

          The biggest problem I see (maybe "problem" isn't the correct term I should use) is the hypocracy of the sports writers. To listen to these lowlifes get up on their high horses and lecture me about what is right and what is wrong when many (if not most) of them are worse human beings than the athletes that are suposedly taking steroids is offensive.

          If McGwire is guilty of anything (and I'm talking about what we can pretty much prove) is listening to crappy legal advice. But, notwithstanding, if this is the stance that writers want to take then sobeit. However, from now on, no player ever suspected of "performance enhancing drugs" should ever be allowed in the Hall ever again. They've made their little point with McGwire, now it will be interesting to see how many of them stand true against Bonds.
          Pecos Pete

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          • faster
            MVP
            • Dec 2002
            • 2182

            #6
            Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

            I guess they're just going to count the era out and forget about baseball that was played then right? Give me a break. There's so much that these idiots have no clue about... they don't even know ONE BIT about steroids to begin with and that's the comical part of it. Guess what fellas, guys don't even have to be BIG to on juice. There is juice that add strength with minimal muscle gain, there is juice that helps in a recomp so if a player wants to lose weight and gain a little muscle, he can do that. Oh, and there's substances that can be taken for stamina and that help people heal that again, won't have noticeable increases in muscle mass.

            The problem is the public has no clue and either does the media. Griffey could have juiced, pitchers could have been on HGH... shoot there are substances today that are just as good as HGH that will NEVER EVER be able to be tested for, period.

            It's an absolute circus of idiots running around with their heads cut off. They have no idea about the subjects they talk about, erroneously blame 3/4 of the league without ANY proof, and just pull things out of the air about substances that know nothing about. Then they get so-called experts on that don't know anything about these substances either. Doctors think they know about them but they don't unless they've actually studied the uses for many of these substances in different quantities for years.

            The moral of the story is that it's a wild good chase based on biased information, lies, and misinformation. What era is the steroid era? There are reports that as far back as the early 80s baseball players were juicing up. Uh oh, let's go back and look at some of those guys and if they're in hall, let's take them out too.

            The whole thing is a sick mess, and the irony is, JUICE WAS NOT ILLEGAL IN THOSE YEARS TO USE IN THE GAME OF BASEBALL. So..... what's the difference? They're not cheating if they're not breaking any rules, are they?
            "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

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            • DrJones
              All Star
              • Mar 2003
              • 9109

              #7
              Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

              Originally posted by penguit
              The whole thing is a sick mess, and the irony is, JUICE WAS NOT ILLEGAL IN THOSE YEARS TO USE IN THE GAME OF BASEBALL. So..... what's the difference? They're not cheating if they're not breaking any rules, are they?
              Not true, steroids have never been legal in baseball, but they never bothered to test until 2003. In fact, most performance-enhancing drugs are illegal, period.
              Originally posted by Thrash13
              Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
              Originally posted by slickdtc
              DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
              Originally posted by Kipnis22
              yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

              Comment

              • LiquidCrash
                All Star
                • Jul 2002
                • 6066

                #8
                Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                But steroids are illegal under federal laws, I somehow doubt baseball rules trump those. Whether baseball had rules against it or not, anabolic steroids are illegal in the US.

                The whole issue is a mess, I hope there's some clarity soon, but I don't see that happening. I too get tired of hearing all these people going crazy over the issue, but something has to be done to clean up the game.

                Comment

                • SportsTop
                  The Few. The Proud.
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 6716

                  #9
                  Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                  Originally posted by LiquidCrash
                  But steroids are illegal under federal laws, I somehow doubt baseball rules trump those.
                  No, but baseball didn't frown upon other Hall of Fame players that broke federal laws during their playing careers either.
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                  • LiquidCrash
                    All Star
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 6066

                    #10
                    Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                    So they shouldn't now? I don't think it's too much to ask for current players to abide by federal laws.

                    Comment

                    • faster
                      MVP
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 2182

                      #11
                      Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                      So on the subject of performance enhancing, why not just legalize juice and make it useable for everyone? The issue is creating a LEVEL playing field right?

                      That's the never going to happen because of genetics, etc. One of the biggest equalizers today is geography. If you're a high school baseball player, and live in a warm climate, you already have a HUGE advantage over your cold weather competitors. To be able to play the game year round already puts you worlds apart from those that can't. That's not equal, and is a performance enhancing geography.

                      So what can players take? Anything natural? There is a new product on the market that increases muscle mass and almost completely stops fat storage and it's completely natural, extracted from nature. Is this legal?

                      Moral of the story is that it's never going to be an even playing field, there are thousands of factors that are going to make a player better or worse than his competition. At what point do we go overboard in limiting what a player can and cannot use to increase his success?
                      "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

                      Comment

                      • SportsTop
                        The Few. The Proud.
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 6716

                        #12
                        Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                        Originally posted by LiquidCrash
                        So they shouldn't now? I don't think it's too much to ask for current players to abide by federal laws.
                        That's not even remotely close to what I was saying. But when you tout the greatness of Ruth and Cobb (two of the five original HOFers) when they were known drinkers during prohibition then don't try to come back holier than thou when they knew players were using performance enhancers and did nothing about it.

                        They were riding the successess of the McGwires, Sosas, Caminitis of the game while they were making them money and then threw them under the bus after all was said and done.

                        It's sad and pathetic.
                        Follow me on Twitter!

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                        • DrJones
                          All Star
                          • Mar 2003
                          • 9109

                          #13
                          Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                          Originally posted by penguit
                          So on the subject of performance enhancing, why not just legalize juice and make it useable for everyone? The issue is creating a LEVEL playing field right?

                          That's the never going to happen because of genetics, etc. One of the biggest equalizers today is geography. If you're a high school baseball player, and live in a warm climate, you already have a HUGE advantage over your cold weather competitors. To be able to play the game year round already puts you worlds apart from those that can't. That's not equal, and is a performance enhancing geography.

                          So what can players take? Anything natural? There is a new product on the market that increases muscle mass and almost completely stops fat storage and it's completely natural, extracted from nature. Is this legal?

                          Moral of the story is that it's never going to be an even playing field, there are thousands of factors that are going to make a player better or worse than his competition. At what point do we go overboard in limiting what a player can and cannot use to increase his success?
                          Well, I seriously doubt if MLB's reached that yet. Track-and-field and cycling, for example, are far more stringent when it comes to frequency of testing, what they test for, and the penalties are extremely punitive. You get caught cheating twice, you're pretty much looking for a new line of work. Baseball players have had (and still have) things pretty easy.

                          There are lots of legal "performance enhancers". Anabolic steroids are illegal because of health risks -- few like the idea of seeing a 12-year-old Hulk at the LLWS or Olympic athletes like FloJo dropping dead of a heart attack in their 30's. However, I'm sure at some point governments and pharmaceuticals will find a way to make money off selling them legally, and we can all look forward to Bonds' mammoth-headed kid hitting 95 HR in the 2028 season. Hooray!
                          Originally posted by Thrash13
                          Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                          Originally posted by slickdtc
                          DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                          Originally posted by Kipnis22
                          yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

                          Comment

                          • DrJones
                            All Star
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 9109

                            #14
                            Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                            Originally posted by Squint
                            That's not even remotely close to what I was saying. But when you tout the greatness of Ruth and Cobb (two of the five original HOFers) when they were known drinkers during prohibition then don't try to come back holier than thou when they knew players were using performance enhancers and did nothing about it.

                            They were riding the successess of the McGwires, Sosas, Caminitis of the game while they were making them money and then threw them under the bus after all was said and done.

                            It's sad and pathetic.
                            But haven't Bud and the boys been proven right? Owners and players alike are making more money than ever. Attendance is higher than ever. Fans have made it pretty clear that they don't care if players "cheat" or not. From a business perspective, letting steroids take over the game for the last decade was a brilliant move.
                            Originally posted by Thrash13
                            Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                            Originally posted by slickdtc
                            DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                            Originally posted by Kipnis22
                            yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

                            Comment

                            • faster
                              MVP
                              • Dec 2002
                              • 2182

                              #15
                              Re: Modern McCarthy-ism...

                              Originally posted by DrJones
                              Well, I seriously doubt if MLB's reached that yet. Track-and-field and cycling, for example, are far more stringent when it comes to frequency of testing, what they test for, and the penalties are extremely punitive. You get caught cheating twice, you're pretty much looking for a new line of work. Baseball players have had (and still have) things pretty easy.

                              There are lots of legal "performance enhancers". Anabolic steroids are illegal because of health risks -- few like the idea of seeing a 12-year-old Hulk at the LLWS or Olympic athletes like FloJo dropping dead of a heart attack in their 30's. However, I'm sure at some point governments and pharmaceuticals will find a way to make money off selling them legally, and we can all look forward to Bonds' mammoth-headed kid hitting 95 HR in the 2028 season. Hooray!
                              Health risks of steroids are so severely overblown it's not even funny. The media has everyone believe they're the devil and taking steroids will kill you or render you disabled later on in life. The facts point to something else, and that's that steroid use, when used in proper doses, and cycled on and off have little to no side effect and long term health risks. But no one would believe that because the media has everyone running scared. I'm not saying everyone is safe to use juice, but if you're a healthy male over age 25, there is little risk if you know what you're doing. There's a right and a wrong way of doing them and the wrong is of course what makes the news. Hormone replacement therapy has been around for 25 years, and I personally know at least 5 people that have juiced for 40+ years and are in their 70s and completely healthy. In fact, they're HEALTHIER than they should be.
                              "Well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation." - Michael Jordan, 2006

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