The Stark Truth

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

It definitely helps. How many people lead the league in ERA and end up 8-16? Nolan Ryan did that in '87 I believe. You look at the teams he played for when he was a starter (angels, astros, and rangers)--all terrible. If would have been playing for the best teams his whole career, his w/l would be lot different. Think of it this way--if you were playing for the modern day royals vs. playing with the red sox/yankees, how much better would your record be? A 4.00 era with the royals probably gets you 10-16, a 4.00 era with the red sox or yankees probably gets you 18-8. Repeat that for 24 years and see what record you come out with.

Taylor34

Right. All I will say is Nolan was as good as any other pitcher in the game. I know there were some better, but still you throw 7 No No's and strike out 5000 batters that is pretty dominating. I reminder when Houston had him and Mike Scott, remember Mike Scott? I remember when Will Clark first plate appearance in the majors was against a Scott and Clark took him deep. lol I know Clark doesn't have the numbers to get into the hall, but he should be in there if you ask me. lol

[mjb2124]

Re: The Stark Truth

Yeah I agree, it is changing now. I still think wins are important, regardless of how good the team is. You still have to be a pretty damn good pitcher to win 300 games in the majors. I look at it this way, if the players was a dominating player then they should be in the hall.

We just differ on that then. I won't say wins are completely unimportant, but overrated. If Pitcher A pitches 15 years on a good team, they'll have many more wins than Pitcher B who pitched for many years on an average or below average team. Only looking at wins is unfair to Pitcher B. Put it this way, if the HOF only looked at W's for pitcher entrance, they'd miss out on an awful lot of good pitchers.

I agree that if the player was dominating they'll be in the HOF. I just don't think a pitchers wins will necessarily reflect that.

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

We just differ on that then. I won't say wins are completely unimportant, but overrated. If Pitcher A pitches 15 years on a good team, they'll have many more wins than Pitcher B who pitched for many years on an average or below average team. Only looking at wins is unfair to Pitcher B. Put it this way, if the HOF only looked at W's for pitcher entrance, they'd miss out on an awful lot of good pitchers.

I agree that if the player was dominating they'll be in the HOF. I just don't think a pitchers wins will necessarily reflect that.

I don't know. I don't know too many pitchers that won 300 games that aren't good pitchers. You still have to pitch good to win games even on a power house team. Look at the Yankees, they have a powerful line up and yet there pitchers are getting shelled. But I hear you, we just have a little different of opinion.

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

We just differ on that then. I won't say wins are completely unimportant, but overrated. If Pitcher A pitches 15 years on a good team, they'll have many more wins than Pitcher B who pitched for many years on an average or below average team. Only looking at wins is unfair to Pitcher B. Put it this way, if the HOF only looked at W's for pitcher entrance, they'd miss out on an awful lot of good pitchers.

I agree that if the player was dominating they'll be in the HOF. I just don't think a pitchers wins will necessarily reflect that.

Right that is the problem they only look at wins, that is why you don't see reliever going or even saved leaders going. Maybe it will change.

[mjb2124]

Re: The Stark Truth

I don't know. I don't know too many pitchers that won 300 games that aren't good pitchers. You still have to pitch good to win games even on a power house team. Look at the Yankees, they have a powerful line up and yet there pitchers are getting shelled. But I hear you, we just have a little different of opinion.

Never said there were any 300 winners that weren't good pitchers. Just that a win doesn't always equate to being a good pitcher and a loss doesn't always equate to being a bad pitcher.

I think to fairly judge a pitcher, a combination of stats needs to be used. Truthfully, I find WHIP and K/IP to be 2 of the more telling signs of a pitchers dominance.

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

Never said there were any 300 winners that weren't good pitchers. Just that a win doesn't always equate to being a good pitcher and a loss doesn't always equate to being a bad pitcher.

I think to fairly judge a pitcher, a combination of stats needs to be used. Truthfully, I find WHIP and K/IP to be 2 of the more telling signs of a pitchers dominance.

Yeah this whip thing is it really a good indicator. Zito has a whip of 1.35, what is a good whip? If that is a good whip, then I think whip is overrated. Because he has not been that good this year. lol He did have a good game last night.

[mjb2124]

Re: The Stark Truth

Yeah this whip thing is it really a good indicator. Zito has a whip of 1.35, what is a good whip? If that is a good whip, then I think whip is overrated. Because he has not been that good this year. lol He did have a good game last night.

1.35 is OK (tied for 60th in MLB). It means he's almost giving up 1.5 hits/walks per innings pitched. Not good, not terrible.....just average.

A guy like Peavy is 0.98. He's near the top in MLB.

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

1.35 is OK (tied for 60th in MLB). It means he's almost giving up 1.5 hits/walks per innings pitched. Not good, not terrible.....just average.

A guy like Peavy is 0.98. He's near the top in MLB.

Got you, that is what he has been average. So that works for me. He is getting better, so we shall see. Damn .98 is sick! Cain and Lincecum have in the low 1.00.

[mjb2124]

Re: The Stark Truth

Got you, that is what he has been average. So that works for me. He is getting better, so we shall see. Damn .98 is sick! Cain and Lincecum have in the low 1.00.

Yeah Peavy is ridiculous. Some of the nastiest stuff I've seen in a while.

Last year Santana finished the year with a 1.00 WHIP. That's absurd. Carpenter wasn't far behind with a 1.07. Talk about being incredibly consistent throughout the entire year.

[Scottdau]

Re: The Stark Truth

Yeah Peavy is ridiculous. Some of the nastiest stuff I've seen in a while.

Last year Santana finished the year with a 1.00 WHIP. That's absurd. Carpenter wasn't far behind with a 1.07. Talk about being incredibly consistent throughout the entire year.

yeah he is! This kid we got have some nasty stuff too.