Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

I'm glad we got Lowell and Beck in return. These guys are studs.

[fugazi]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

Regarding the thread title...

I'd still take Peavy, Pujols, Webb, Oswalt, and a few others over him.

O rly?


You listed 3 pitchers. There are more quality starters, by your own admission, than there are guys like Ramirez...

Reyes, for Defensive reasons, may be the only competition.

[Beantown]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

O rly?


You listed 3 pitchers. There are more quality starters, by your own admission, than there are guys like Ramirez...

Reyes, for Defensive reasons, may be the only competition.

He said best player in the NL.

Pitchers are players.

I'd agree that Peavy and Pujols are better players than him, though I'd say he's above Webb/Oswalt.

[fugazi]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

you don't understand, horn....

what I was trying to get at was that a quality starter is easier to come by than a guy that brings what Ramirez does offensively.

Did you seriously think that I thought pitchers were not players???
Good Grief man.

I spend a good deal of my time trying to remember that most people are idiots, but that is even beyond my cynicism.....

[dkgojackets]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

The thing is, Cabrera has the best chance of getting MVP for this team. Looking through other forums, the consensus is that everyone expects Fielder to win because first basemen with a lot of homeruns are god in the voters eyes no matter how undeserving, as evidenced last year. If Cabrera finishes with 35+ homers and 110+ RBIs while maintaining a 45 point higher average than Fielder, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually got the award. Ramirez probably finishes 5th or less unless he goes on a tear and ends up batting .350+ and gets to 30 homers (which is very possible).

[dkgojackets]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

what I was trying to get at was that a quality starter is easier to come by than a guy that brings what Ramirez does offensively.

Exactly. Taking a look at AL pitching leaders, Beckett doesn't really stand out in anything and has very comparable (even worse) numbers with about ten other guys. It would be even greater if you checked the NL. The point is that there are many pitchers out there you could replace Beckett or any other SP for that matter with and production will remain pretty constant. Not true for Ramirez. I cannot think of anyone I would want them to trade him for straight up. Pujols (even though slugging 1B are easy to find) and Utley are the only ones that are close since Cabrera is already on the team.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

There's a difference between a "quality pitcher" and a guy like Jake Peavy or Brandon Webb....

[Beantown]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

what I was trying to get at was that a quality starter is easier to come by than a guy that brings what Ramirez does offensively.

And what I was getting at was Peavy, or even Webb, as Matrix said are not "quality starters."

They are aces, plain and simple, and are more important to a team than Ramirez would be.

It's easier to come by a good defensive shortstop (Red sox signing Alex Gonzalez last year, for instance) than it is for a team to get a guy like Peavy, whether you want to believe that or not.

And I'll ignore your blatant attempt at a personal insult. Try again later, though.

[Brandon13]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

Peavy is the only pitcher that I would consider taking over Ramirez. I would just rather have the guy that's playing every day as opposed to the guy that plays every fifth day. Plus Ramirez's potential is so high it's not even funny.

[fugazi]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

You don't understand, horn.

I was saying that you must have thought that I was a massive idiot when you suggested that I didn't realize that "pitchers are players." No need to get so worked up....If I wanted to insult you I would say Boomer Sooner....and something about Quentin Griffin, but even then who cares...

As for the thread,
I will admit that I should not have used the phrase "quality starter", your use of the term ACE, was much more appropriate.

Though I will maintain that it is harder to find a SS, nay a MIF, that brings what Ramirez does...than it is to find an ACE...there are more aces than Reyes's and Ramirez's.

Perhaps not simply by the name alone...but you get my point.

I don't wholly disagree that an ace cannot be the best player, and I believe they are terribly important...the Cubs seem to live and die with Zambrano.
But Ramirez will likely play, what 150 games each year?

[snepp]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

As for the thread,
I will admit that I should not have used the phrase "quality starter", your use of the term ACE, was much more appropriate.

Though I will maintain that it is harder to find a SS, nay a MIF, that brings what Ramirez does...than it is to find an ACE...there are more aces than Reyes's and Ramirez's.

Perhaps not simply by the name alone...but you get my point.

I don't wholly disagree that an ace cannot be the best player, and I believe they are terribly important...the Cubs seem to live and die with Zambrano.
But Ramirez will likely play, what 150 games each year?

The problem with this entire line of thinking is that you're ignoring the fact that there are 7 other positions (8 in the AL) that can be used to get the production that Ramirez or Reyes brings. It's easier to find an excellent position player than it is to find an ace.

[fugazi]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

Is it easier to find a MIF with his production than, say, a corner IF or corner OF?

That was also part of my point.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

Is it easier to find a MIF with his production than, say, a corner IF or corner OF?

That was also part of my point.

No, it's not. But you don't look to a middle infield position to fill a stat sheet.

Having one is great, and Hanley is incredible, but give me the superstar pitcher over a great SS any freakin' day.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

The point is that it is much easier to find an "ace" or superstar pitcher or whatever you call it then a shortstop who is so far and away the best at his position that it isn't even funny. Hanley currently has a .978 OPS. The next highest OPS for a shortstop in all of baseball is Edgar Renteria at .879. That difference is just huge. Batters can always help their team win any given game by scoring more runs, no matter how bad their pitcher is. A starting pitcher can never guarantee themself a win no matter how well they pitch.

[cjonesfan921]

Re: Hanley Ramirez is the best player in the NL

I'll take the soon to be CY young, Chris Young as the best player in the NL.

As far as MVP goes, it probably will be Fielder, but Chipper has a good shot, so does Hanley and Cabrera. Utley before he went down had a chance.