The sinking of the Mariners

[spit_bubble]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Does "Prince" Felix work for now? He's still the best young pitching talent since Doc Gooden. Santana, Clemens, Halladay, Pedro, Schilling, Randy Johnson, etc...You name any pitcher currently in baseball and they weren't as good as Felix is as a 21 year old. Beckett is the only one who is even relatively close (and he only made 4 starts as a 21 year old).

Once (or if) his head catches up to his arm he's going to be the best pitcher in baseball.

BTW...his ERA has been under 4.00 most of the year. He's 10th in FIP and 2nd in xFIP in the AL. I'd say he's already one of the better pitchers in the AL.

Felix has been the biggest disappointment of the Mariners' season.

[Coug00]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Felix has been the biggest disappointment of the Mariners' season.

Right. Jose Lopez is far and away the biggest disappointment...and its not even close. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team give up on him soon.

2nd biggest disappointment would be Horacio Ramirez. They traded away a great young reliever for cannon fodder.

I would put Richie Sexson and Ibanez as bigger disappointments.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Does "Prince" Felix work for now? He's still the best young pitching talent since Doc Gooden. Santana, Clemens, Halladay, Pedro, Schilling, Randy Johnson, etc...You name any pitcher currently in baseball and they weren't as good as Felix is as a 21 year old. Beckett is the only one who is even relatively close (and he only made 4 starts as a 21 year old).

Once (or if) his head catches up to his arm he's going to be the best pitcher in baseball.

BTW...his ERA has been under 4.00 most of the year. He's 10th in FIP and 2nd in xFIP in the AL. I'd say he's already one of the better pitchers in the AL.

I'll agree that he's ahead of the curve in terms of raw stuff but he's only putting up slightly better than league average numbers and has had some injury concerns. I'm not calling him King, Prince, or Sultan Anything until he puts up a legitimate above average season. Even then, he better look really sharp because he's still pitching in a pitcher's heaven there in Safeco which splits or not is still helping him.

[rsox]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Right. Jose Lopez is far and away the biggest disappointment...and its not even close. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team give up on him soon.

2nd biggest disappointment would be Horacio Ramirez. They traded away a great young reliever for cannon fodder.

I would put Richie Sexson and Ibanez as bigger disappointments.

Why is Ibanez a disappointment?. Aside from a career year last season his numbers this season are consistant with what he averages per season. He should finish with around 20 HR's and 100 RBI's.

I will agree with you on Sexson though. His Batting Average is terrible, his power seems to be gone and he just can't seem to drive in runs (.192 BA with RISP).
Hopefully this is just a down year for Sexson. The Mariners are on the hook for him for a lot of money next season and they probably will not be able to trade him so they need him to turn it around.

[Sandman42]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Why is Ibanez a disappointment?. Aside from a career year last season his numbers this season are consistant with what he averages per season. He should finish with around 20 HR's and 100 RBI's.

I will agree with you on Sexson though. His Batting Average is terrible, his power seems to be gone and he just can't seem to drive in runs (.192 BA with RISP).
Hopefully this is just a down year for Sexson. The Mariners are on the hook for him for a lot of money next season and they probably will not be able to trade him so they need him to turn it around.

Sexson was actually claimed on waivers last month, but the Mariners decided to pull him off waivers. I was surprised because he has struggled mightily the past 2 seasons and they could've dumped him off to whatever team claimed him and they could have gotten rid of his contract.

[spit_bubble]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Right. Jose Lopez is far and away the biggest disappointment...and its not even close. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team give up on him soon.

2nd biggest disappointment would be Horacio Ramirez. They traded away a great young reliever for cannon fodder.

I would put Richie Sexson and Ibanez as bigger disappointments.

Everything I heard about Felix coming out of the minors was that he was a sure thing, the second coming of Doc Gooden. It was said that not only did he have the stuff, but the makeup as well.

Then, before this year he asks management to be let loose, to have the pitch count be raised or erased all together, as if that's what was holding him back from putting up good numbers.

On the mound this year he still loses his cool way too often. He needs to just shut the f up and pitch... Be a man, then maybe we can start calling him King.

As high as the expectations were for Felix, and still are for that matter, he can only be considered a big disappointment up to this point. Sexson, Lopez, Ibanez? Subpar years, but not a disappointment like Felix. He's a guy who was expected to quickly emerge as a dominant #1, and he only seems to show up about once a month.

[cjonesfan921]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Does "Prince" Felix work for now? He's still the best young pitching talent since Doc Gooden. Santana, Clemens, Halladay, Pedro, Schilling, Randy Johnson, etc...You name any pitcher currently in baseball and they weren't as good as Felix is as a 21 year old. Beckett is the only one who is even relatively close (and he only made 4 starts as a 21 year old).

Once (or if) his head catches up to his arm he's going to be the best pitcher in baseball.

BTW...his ERA has been under 4.00 most of the year. He's 10th in FIP and 2nd in xFIP in the AL. I'd say he's already one of the better pitchers in the AL.

Liriano may have something to say about that.

[Brandon13]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Liriano may have something to say about that.

What about Prior? How old was he when he came up to the majors?

[Coug00]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Both Liriano and Prior had their first full season in the majors as 22 year olds.

Everything I heard about Felix coming out of the minors was that he was a sure thing, the second coming of Doc Gooden. It was said that not only did he have the stuff, but the makeup as well.

Then, before this year he asks management to be let loose, to have the pitch count be raised or erased all together, as if that's what was holding him back from putting up good numbers.

On the mound this year he still loses his cool way too often. He needs to just shut the f up and pitch... Be a man, then maybe we can start calling him King.

As high as the expectations were for Felix, and still are for that matter, he can only be considered a big disappointment up to this point. Sexson, Lopez, Ibanez? Subpar years, but not a disappointment like Felix. He's a guy who was expected to quickly emerge as a dominant #1, and he only seems to show up about once a month.

That's fine, maybe he's the biggest disappointment to you, but after the last couple years the staff knew Felix wasn't going to turn into that dominant #1 overnight and would need time to develop just like 99.9% of young pitchers.

If you watch the M's closely (i.e. nightly basis) you'll see the development in Felix mentally this season. Just today against the Yankees he was getting squeezed big time by Gerry Davis (check out the Pitch f/x), which led to back to back walks. In the past that was meltdown territory, but he calmly took the mound and easily got Abreu to groundout to get out of the jam.

Sexson and Ibanez (with the exception of a 2 week stretch in August) are so miserable you'd think they are on life-support. This season for them is well beyond a "sub-par" year. These were the 3 and 4 hitters in the M's lineup and they are completely non-existent. Raul had 6 home runs heading into August. His RBI's were thanks to hitting behind Ichiro and Vidro...pure opportunity statistic. His defense and range are nearly on par with Manny Ramirez. He's cost more runs by his "fielding" than he creates with his bat.

Lopez was an All-Star last year and the future at 2b. However, he's showing the exact same slide he had in the 2nd half of last year and the year before. His fielding is weak, his mental errors are frustrating, and he can't hit worth beans. He hasn't improved much at all over the last 3 years and there are murmurs from the FO that they are tired of him. That is the biggest disappointment.

The M's traded away Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez to be the #3 starter. He's either been injured or completely worthless (6.48 ERA, 1:1 K/BB, .491 SLG Allowed, etc). The M's took a huge chance on Ramirez by trading away one of the games better relievers and it completely backfired in their face.

Again, its disappointing Felix isn't the best in the league at this point, but he's far from the biggest disappointment for the M's this season as he has shown improvement.

[Seahawk76]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Felix Hernandez is only 21 years old. Almost every other pitcher that age is still learning his craft in college or the minor leagues while Felix is learning his craft in Yankee Stadium vs. Roger Clemons. He still has a lot to learn but he's a long way from being a disappointment except maybe to those with unrealistic expectations. There's probably not a team in the majors that wouldn't trade away serious major league talent for him.

The Mariners aren't out of it just yet. They're the streakiest team in baseball and every time they've come out of one of their long losing streaks this year they've gone on a tear for about a month or so. That'll have to happen again this time if they want to have a realistic shot at the wildcard.

The big problem with the M's is the same as it's been all year: the starting pitching. It's inconsistent as hell and doesn't go deep enough into games. The team has had to go to the bullpen early and often all year and it may be starting to burn out. This next week or so is make or break for the M's.

Horacio Ramirez hasn't been so much a disappointment as our worst fears realized when Bavasi made that stupid trade for him. I don't think anyone had any illusions that he was anything other than a mediocre, injury-prone pitcher. Sexson has been a major disappointment and I'm actually glad he's hurt right now so McLaren is forced to play Broussard at first. Raul Ibanez had a lousy first half, mainly due to nagging injuries, but he's apparently healthy now and tearing the cover off the ball. His numbers now are pretty much in line with his career averages. He shouldn't be playing LF any more though. He looks like he's running through mud out there. He needs to be a DH and McLaren should be starting Adam Jones in LF.

Speaking of McLaren, he's been the biggest disappointment so far since taking over for Hargrove. His game management has been hideous, especially his handling of the bullpen. During this losing streak he kept trotting out the abysmal Rick White during crucial situations while JJ Putz was collecting splinters in his butt. If Rick White is your best option in the ninth inning of a crucial tied ballgame then you've mismanaged the hell out of your bullpen.

[Coug00]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Felix Hernandez is only 21 years old. Almost every other pitcher that age is still learning his craft in college or the minor leagues while Felix is learning his craft in Yankee Stadium vs. Roger Clemons. He still has a lot to learn but he's a long way from being a disappointment except maybe to those with unrealistic expectations. There's probably not a team in the majors that wouldn't trade away serious major league talent for him.

The Mariners aren't out of it just yet. They're the streakiest team in baseball and every time they've come out of one of their long losing streaks this year they've gone on a tear for about a month or so. That'll have to happen again this time if they want to have a realistic shot at the wildcard.

The big problem with the M's is the same as it's been all year: the starting pitching. It's inconsistent as hell and doesn't go deep enough into games. The team has had to go to the bullpen early and often all year and it may be starting to burn out. This next week or so is make or break for the M's.

Horacio Ramirez hasn't been so much a disappointment as our worst fears realized when Bavasi made that stupid trade for him. I don't think anyone had any illusions that he was anything other than a mediocre, injury-prone pitcher. Sexson has been a major disappointment and I'm actually glad he's hurt right now so McLaren is forced to play Broussard at first. Raul Ibanez had a lousy first half, mainly due to nagging injuries, but he's apparently healthy now and tearing the cover off the ball. His numbers now are pretty much in line with his career averages. He shouldn't be playing LF any more though. He looks like he's running through mud out there. He needs to be a DH and McLaren should be starting Adam Jones in LF.

Speaking of McLaren, he's been the biggest disappointment so far since taking over for Hargrove. His game management has been hideous, especially his handling of the bullpen. During this losing streak he kept trotting out the abysmal Rick White during crucial situations while JJ Putz was collecting splinters in his butt. If Rick White is your best option in the ninth inning of a crucial tied ballgame then you've mismanaged the hell out of your bullpen.

Can you imagine what kind of shape our starting pitching would be in if we had that albatross of a contract for Barry Zito? That would have crippled the organization for years. The M's thought Zito would be the ace of the staff, which is further justification they didn't think Felix is ready to be the dominant ace as has been claimed earlier in this thread.

Good point about McLaren. I understand Lou Piniella isn't the best game manager, but what the hell was McLaren learning all those years as his bench coach? He's clueless and probably the biggest disappointment when you look at the whole picture.

To me HoRam is a major disappointment because the team took a huge chance on him and he didn't perform. Not even close to performing. He's basically a marginal AAA pitcher being trotted out every 5 days for reasons unknown to me.

With the exception of that 2 week stretch last month Ibanez has been horrible. Since that hot streak he's pretty much a singles slap hitter at cleanup. He hasn't had an extra base hit in over 10 games and he's not getting on top of the balls like he was in early/mid August.

[Seahawk76]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

The M's are done. Hopefully this collapse will be enough to get both Bavasi and McLaren fired but I won't hold my breath. Thankfully the football season is here.

[rsox]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

The M's are done. Hopefully this collapse will be enough to get both Bavasi and McLaren fired but I won't hold my breath. Thankfully the football season is here.

McLaren is only interim anyway so the Mariners will probably have a new manager next year. We did hear at the end of last season that Bavasi (and Mike Hargrove, not that it matters now) were on the hot seat this season and this late season collapse might be enough to get Bavasi out.

[Coug00]

Re: The sinking of the Mariners

Technically, McLaren is an interim Manager, but the team officially said he is not an interim manager. His contract only runs through this season and the 2nd half has basically been a tryout period. Even as poorly as the M's FO is run I can't believe McLaren will be back.

Here's an interesting note from Larry Stone in the SeattleTimes...

According to research on the essential Web site Baseball-Reference.com, the last of only three teams since 1957 with a lead in the league, divisional or wild-card race to have a nine-game losing streak or longer that began as late as Aug. 24 was the California Angels of 1995.

Yeah, those Angels. The Angels that blew a 13-game lead to the Mariners. The Angels that had as their general manager one Bill Bavasi, who 10 years later would say of the experience of watching his team squander their lead and then get eliminated by the Mariners in a one-game playoff, "I don't know that it's a life-altering experience, but it hurt."

Those Angels actually had two nine-game losing streaks after Aug. 24. The first began on Aug. 25, when California was 8 ½ games ahead of Texas and 11 ahead of the Mariners, and ended on Sept. 3, when the Angels were 5 ½ games ahead of the Mariners and 6 ½ ahead of Texas.

Bavasi better be gone. Just about the only good things he's done are replenish the minor league system after the disaster that was Pat Gillick, sign Beltre/Ibanez/Guillen, re-sign Ichiro, and lose out on the Zito sweepstakes. Other than that he's been a disaster.