Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

[DrJones]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

For this particular debate, I am not arguing whether or not Dunn is valuable as a player/hitter/slugger. I am only commenting on the specific comment that he wasn't a good producer with RISP, which was followed by a response about his OPS with RISP.

Nothing more, nothing less.

As far as sacrificing his personal stats and his own RBI's, why not look at it as he is making the money he is making to NOT sacrifice RBI's and his personal stats? Don't get me wrong, I would rather see a player walk than hit into an inning ending double play, but at some point you have to hold a player responsible for what they are on the team for. For Dunn it is to hit home runs and drive people in. He certainly hits home runs. And because of that he does drive some people in. But with that said, he doesn't do it at the rate of some other big leaguers.

I also don't see how anyone can say that the stat for RBI's is meaningless. Isn't the point of the game to score more runs than the other team? Wouldn't someone that can get those runs in have more meaning to a team than someone who can walk a lot? I guess you can argue that without the walks from player A then player B wouldn't have anyone to drive in. But what if Player A is suppose to be Player B for a team?

You tell me which player you would prefer to have:

Player A

.237 AVG 74 RBI .380 OBP .929 OPS

Player B

.305 AVG 106 RBI .368 OBP .922 OPS

It would appear from some people's argument in this thread that Player A is better to have than Player B because AVG and RBI don't mean anything and OBP and OPS do.

Anyone else besides me say they would rather have Josh Hamilton (Player B) over Adam Dunn (Player A) right now (not including the reason of defense)?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

[DrJones]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Doubles are a huge part of the game and may even drive in more runs than home runs do although I don't know that for sure.

Wha??

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

someone gets it!

[snepp]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

I approve of this post.

[windseer90]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

That's an excellent point. So I made a bad comparison between Dunn and Hamilton....I agree with that.

The Reds do suck and that absolutely has an impact on how many RBI's Dunn gets. But by the metric that Coug00 showed me, Dunn is not very good at getting the runners home.

Or does that metric mean nothing to you guys also?

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Wha??

Yeah I thought about that statement later and realized it was silly. Please strike that post from the record.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hamilton's having a better year, absolutely. But RBI totals by themselves are deceptive without context. With men on base, Hamilton's driven in 95 runs compared to Dunn's 54. No contest, right? Except Hamilton's had eighty more plate appearances with runners on base than Dunn (253 to 173). If they switched teams while hitting exactly the same with runners on, Dunn would have 85 RBI and Hamilton 65, and this thread wouldn't exist. Hamilton would still be having the better year objectively, but it would be shrouded by the fact that his Cincinnati teammates suck at getting on base in front of him.

Not that it matters because the debate isn't about RBI totals or even how many at bats Hamilton's had over Dunn, but according to yahoo (and maybe that isn't the best source?), Dunn has had 87 at bats with RISP and Hamilton has had 134. That is only 47 more at bats.

Unless those figures are off. But again, the debate at hand is actually how good Dunn is at getting runners home. I say he isn't very good at it. Other stats say he isn't very good at it.

Can someone show me a stat that says he IS good at it?

[Coug00]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

That's an excellent point. So I made a bad comparison between Dunn and Hamilton....I agree with that.

The Reds do suck and that absolutely has an impact on how many RBI's Dunn gets. But by the metric that Coug00 showed me, Dunn is not very good at getting the runners home.

Or does that metric mean nothing to you guys also?

The metric is accurate and pretty straight forward. Its been around for a long time. What it tells you, that I think most of the statheads in here will agree with, is that traditional lineups are bunk. You don't have to have a traditional leadoff man, or a #2 hitter that doesn't strikeout and moves men over, or a big slugger in the 4 hole. Those are perceptions from the old era of baseball that have been mathematically proven to be overrated.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

traditional lineups are bunk. You don't have to have a traditional leadoff man, or a #2 hitter that doesn't strikeout and moves men over, or a big slugger in the 4 hole. Those are perceptions from the old era of baseball that have been mathematically proven to be overrated.

and there are still people that believe otherwise

[slickdtc]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

I don't see the point in limiting players to certain roles. He is on the team and getting paid to play the best baseball that he can and to help the team to the best of his ability. His game is getting on base at a high rate and hitting the ball with power when he puts it in play. When you try to tell him to do differently it will only lead to a decrease in overall production and hurt the team.

Wouldn't his role be to get on base and hit homeruns then?

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Wouldn't his role be to get on base and hit homeruns then?

I'm not sure what youre trying to say but thats what hes best at. Saying that he isnt doing his job though because he doesnt have a certain number of rbis or other worthless stat doesnt make sense when he is contributing more value to the team by not changing up his game in certain situations.

[DrJones]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Not that it matters because the debate isn't about RBI totals or even how many at bats Hamilton's had over Dunn, but according to yahoo (and maybe that isn't the best source?), Dunn has had 87 at bats with RISP and Hamilton has had 134. That is only 47 more at bats.

My numbers use men on base (not just on 2nd or 3rd) and plate appearances, not AB.

[snepp]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

My numbers use men on base (not just on 2nd or 3rd) and plate appearances, not AB.

The w/RISP numbers just reinforce your original point anyway. Hamilton gets a ridiculous number of opportunities compared to Dunn.

Hamilton has had 32% more plate appearances with runners on, and 28% more plate appearances with RISP.

And not surprisingly, he has roughly 31% more RBI on the season than Dunn does (108 to 74).

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hurray knowledge!!