The Mariners hate Ichiro?

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  • J0nnD0ugh
    Hall Of Fame
    • Feb 2003
    • 16602

    #16
    Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

    Originally posted by dkgojackets
    The premise of sabremetric hitting is very simple. Don't make outs. Not sure why people can't understand that.

    If Ichiro could get on base a greater percentage of the time by sacrificing twenty hits a season and a couple points of batting average, then why would you possibly think that he is helping the team by refusing to do that just so he can increase personal hit stats?

    Your argument is like saying a basketball player who jacks up a bunch of shots a game isn't being selfish because he just wants to score points, which is the object of the game. How can someone trying to score points possibly hurt his team?!?!?!?!
    Who said he refused? He's aggressive. James' disciples glorify a guy that can just look @ other people's mistakes instead of someone who can take action himself. I want a guy that can make a play instead of someone who waits for somebody else to make a mistake.

    Your basketball analogy is so off base its not even worth my time disputing it.

    And you keep saying if Ichiro can get more walks. Assumption is no proof. That's no proof the guy is selfish.
    Originally posted by VP Richard M. Nixon
    I always remember that whatever I have done in the past, or may do in the future, Duke University is responsible one way or the other.
    -August 17, 1960
    Thanks, dookies!

    Comment

    • dkgojackets
      Banned
      • Mar 2005
      • 13816

      #17
      Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

      Originally posted by J0nnD0ugh
      Who said he refused? He's aggressive. James' disciples glorify a guy that can just look @ other people's mistakes instead of someone who can take action himself. I want a guy that can make a play instead of someone who waits for somebody else to make a mistake.
      You can have him. I want the guy who gives my team the best chance to win. I'll take the hitter who waits for the hanging curve instead of hacking at the first thing in the zone. The pitcher who works the corners to draw a bad swing instead of challenging every hitter with heat. The cornerback who sits back and reads the QBs eyes instead of trying to jump every route. A point guard who waits to catch the interior defender out of position instead of forcing everything to the hoop.

      Games are won by capitalizing on opponents' mistakes.

      Comment

      • dkgojackets
        Banned
        • Mar 2005
        • 13816

        #18
        Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

        And you can hate on Bill James and think OPS is too complicated all you want, but it's no coincidence that the top five teams in OPS are all in the top seven in runs scored, while the bottom five teams in OPS are also the bottom five in runs scored.

        Comment

        • J0nnD0ugh
          Hall Of Fame
          • Feb 2003
          • 16602

          #19
          Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

          I never said ops was complicated. I said all of his stats overly complicated the game. I read his stuff when it came out before I was a teenager & understood what he was saying. All of those numbers are tools, they are not the bible of baseball. That's where James disciples go overboard. Its like I have a beautiful home. I want to do some landscaping to accentuate my property. But I do so much w/trees, bushes, flowers etc, that no one can see my house until they get right on the doorstep.

          And your analogies once again don't fit. Does Ichiro swing @ every bad pitch? Never did I say strategy should be thrown out of the window. Ichiro doesn't say "gimmie my 3" & walks back to the dugout. Balance, my friend. Balance.
          Originally posted by VP Richard M. Nixon
          I always remember that whatever I have done in the past, or may do in the future, Duke University is responsible one way or the other.
          -August 17, 1960
          Thanks, dookies!

          Comment

          • Speedy
            #Ace
            • Apr 2008
            • 16143

            #20
            Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

            Originally posted by dkgojackets
            And you can hate on Bill James and think OPS is too complicated all you want, but it's no coincidence that the top five teams in OPS are all in the top seven in runs scored, while the bottom five teams in OPS are also the bottom five in runs scored.
            Adam Dunn has a near .900 OPS but that's because he either walks or hits homers. I partly agree with the OPS logic, but if I have a guy on 2nd with 0 or 1 out, I'd rather have a smart batter who will hit behind the runner (pushing him to 3rd) than a walk...It's more productive and it's manufacturing a run which (i.e. Minnesota Twins) produces winning baseball
            Originally posted by Gibson88
            Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
            It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

            Comment

            • dkgojackets
              Banned
              • Mar 2005
              • 13816

              #21
              Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

              Originally posted by WakeUnc2321
              Adam Dunn has a near .900 OPS but that's because he either walks or hits homers. I partly agree with the OPS logic, but if I have a guy on 2nd with 0 or 1 out, I'd rather have a smart batter who will hit behind the runner (pushing him to 3rd) than a walk...It's more productive and it's manufacturing a run which (i.e. Minnesota Twins) produces winning baseball
              You would rather have a man on third with 1 out than first and second with no outs?

              Are you aware that a team in the first situation (man on 3rd, 1 out) averages about .97 runs the rest of the inning compared to about 1.53 runs for teams with 1st and 2nd, no outs?

              I'm interested in your approach to the game which focuses on minimizing runs scored. Except for very rare late game situations when you want to maximize the percentage of scoring at least one run instead of maximizing total expectation, I'll take two on no out over man on third one out any day, any place.

              Comment

              • EWRMETS
                All Star
                • Jul 2002
                • 7491

                #22
                Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                Originally posted by dkgojackets
                This expression makes no sense with regards to your argument. I would gladly sacrifice my one dollar in hand for two that I can get elsewhere. Likewise, Ichiro should be willing to sacrifice one thing he does well in exchange for doing two things well.
                You assume Ichiro could be more patient and still be just as good of a hitter. People have claimed that Ichiro could hit 30 homers if he wanted to, but it's all just hypotheticals.

                Comment

                • dkgojackets
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 13816

                  #23
                  Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                  Originally posted by EWRMETS
                  You assume Ichiro could be more patient and still be just as good of a hitter. People have claimed that Ichiro could hit 30 homers if he wanted to, but it's all just hypotheticals.
                  Its definitely too late to change his approach now. I'm just saying that I can see where his teammates are coming from as they watch his at-bats.

                  Comment

                  • Lintyfresh85
                    Where have I been?
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 17492

                    #24
                    Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                    Two things:

                    First: This thread has made it clear to me that DK knows nothing about baseball...

                    Second: Rotoworld sums up my thoughts on this situation perfectly!

                    An anonymous clubhouse insider told the Seattle Times that Mariners teammates were so annoyed with Ichiro Suzuki earlier this season that they considered beating him up.

                    "I just can't believe the number of guys who really dislike him," said the insider. "It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him." The coaching staff and then-manager John McLaren intervened when one player was overheard talking about wanting to "knock him out." Perhaps the goal would have been to knock him around like the rest of the league has done to Carlos Silva this year, but given Mariners' hitters reputations, it's likely that the team could land several blows and still not do any damage. It's not as though Richie Sexson had a chance of making contact.
                    Source: Seattle Times
                    http://flotn.blogspot.com

                    Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

                    Originally posted by trobinson97
                    Hell, I shot my grandmother, cuz she was old.

                    Comment

                    • Speedy
                      #Ace
                      • Apr 2008
                      • 16143

                      #25
                      Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                      Originally posted by dkgojackets
                      You would rather have a man on third with 1 out than first and second with no outs?

                      Are you aware that a team in the first situation (man on 3rd, 1 out) averages about .97 runs the rest of the inning compared to about 1.53 runs for teams with 1st and 2nd, no outs?

                      I'm interested in your approach to the game which focuses on minimizing runs scored. Except for very rare late game situations when you want to maximize the percentage of scoring at least one run instead of maximizing total expectation, I'll take two on no out over man on third one out any day, any place.
                      I understand what you're saying there, exactly. I've watched the Braves play all season and most times with a guy on 2nd someone like Brian McCann would walk and the next batter up hits into a double play.

                      Obviously I'd prefer 2 on w/0 out any day as well, but I'd prefer someone at the plate who understands the game and a necessity for moving the guy over (instead of trying to pulverize the ball into the left field bleachers). That's why I like watching the Twins play b/c they don't wait for the 2 or 3-run homers
                      Originally posted by Gibson88
                      Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
                      It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

                      Comment

                      • Coug00
                        LOB
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 3476

                        #26
                        Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                        Originally posted by dkgojackets
                        Its definitely too late to change his approach now.
                        Its not. For a few years there were murmurs of moving Ichiro to the 3-hole and changing his approach at the plate. However, the team valued his abilities at the leadoff spot more.

                        Ichiro is going to have to change his approach if he's going to play into his 50's like he claims. His bat speed and foot speed will slow, so he's going to have to become more selective at the plate.

                        I dont blame him since he doesn't have much else to play for on a team more than 40 games under .500 and there are a whole ****load of things wrong with that team, but seeing 3.565 P/PA compared to the rest of the teams 3.702 is pretty significant.
                        I'd say you can attribute his 90.89% contact rate as the reason why he sees 1 less pitch every six at bats than his teammatses.
                        Last edited by Coug00; 09-27-2008, 10:39 AM.
                        Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

                        Comment

                        • snepp
                          We'll waste him too.
                          • Apr 2003
                          • 10007

                          #27
                          Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                          Originally posted by Coug00
                          I'd say you can attribute his 90.89% contact rate as the reason why he sees 1 less pitch every six at bats than his teammatses.
                          Yeah, P/PA relies heavily on context for it to be of much use.
                          Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

                          Comment

                          • dkgojackets
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 13816

                            #28
                            Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                            Originally posted by Coug00
                            Its not. For a few years there were murmurs of moving Ichiro to the 3-hole and changing his approach at the plate. However, the team valued his abilities at the leadoff spot more.
                            I don't have much respect for the evaluation system of a team thats going to finish 40 games under .500.

                            Comment

                            • dkgojackets
                              Banned
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 13816

                              #29
                              Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                              Originally posted by Lintyfresh85
                              Two things:

                              First: This thread has made it clear to me that DK knows nothing about baseball...

                              Second: Rotoworld sums up my thoughts on this situation perfectly!
                              In this thread I have said

                              1: The goal of the hitter is to not make an out.
                              2: The goal of the pitcher is to record an out.
                              3: Someone who gets on base at a greater rate and hits for more power is more valuable than someone who hits a large number of singles.
                              4: Someone who would rather hit a bunch of singles instead of getting on base more and hitting for power is hurting his team.
                              5: First and Second, no outs scores more runs on average than man on third one out.

                              Which of these do you disagree with?

                              Comment

                              • Coug00
                                LOB
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 3476

                                #30
                                Re: The Mariners hate Ichiro?

                                Originally posted by dkgojackets
                                I don't have much respect for the evaluation system of a team thats going to finish 40 games under .500.
                                Neither do I. But I'm not sure what Mariner upper-management has to do with coaching and lineup construction. They're hands off on day-to-day strategy.

                                And like I said, this was a few years ago (3 managers ago in fact).
                                Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

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