Who are the best players in the game?

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  • Ewing
    Banned
    • Mar 2009
    • 863

    #16
    Re: Who are the best players in the game?

    Originally posted by WakeUnc2321
    Team wins if outscores opponents. Team then must score runs. Team then needs somebody to bat in runs.
    In terms of evaluating an individual player's talent, do you really take RBI into account over OBP and stats that actually measure things? Come on, you're better than that.

    Originally posted by Dice
    It isn't like Pendleton didn't deserve the MVP. Were there players who could have won it besides Pendleton? Of course. Remember, the NL was weak that year. Pendleton lead the NL with a .319 average on a 94 win/World Series bound team. I agree the baseball writers don't always pick the favorites but the ones they do pick you can't argue that they shouldn't be there. Even if Pendleton didn't win the MVP in 91, he still would have been in the top 3 in voting that season.

    Why do you keep thinking that I hold RBI numbers as the highest form of accomplishment for a baseball player? like I stated, it's not the end-all-be-all but it has to be factored in.

    Let me playback again what I said when I first responded to your post:

    I stated, not only his RBI totals but also his HR totals. But most importantly, he's doing it for a championship team. There to me is when you start to see number differently when you do it when it counts. And since you seem impressed with slugging PCT. Howard slugged for .762 in the World Series last year.
    My point about Pendleton is that just because a player wins an MVP award doesn't put them in discussion for the best in the game. Would you really argue between 90-94 that Pendleton was one of the best players in baseball? Of course not.

    And yes, I can say the awards BBWAA gives out are given to the absolute wrong person frequently and sometimes those guys shouldn't even be in the discussion for the award. Remember when Bartolo Colon won the Cy Young award in 2005 despite Johan Santana being far superior? Or what about in 2002 when Zito won the Cy Young award over Pedro Martinez? I'll even go more recent, 2007, Rollins winning NL MVP was an absolute joke. I know that's going to upset a lot of Philly fans, but it's the truth.

    The reason I bring RBI up is that it holds no validity when evaluating a player. It's like discussing wins when talking about the best pitchers.

    Howard slugged .762 over five games. You do realize that's an incredibly small sample size, right? And just because a player is on a great team does not make them one of the best players in the sport. Again, by no stretch of the word is Ryan Howard a bad baseball player, but is he the greatest in baseball right now? Not a chance.

    Originally posted by wwharton
    Aren't you the same guy that said the Nats would win the WS in the next 2 or 3 years? Is that thought based on Adam Dunn (strikes out more than Howard with a horrible BA) or is there something else that would bring validity to that opinion while not contradicting this one?
    I said they would have a winning season, not win the world series. And actually you would be wrong, Howard strikes out more than Dunn over the last three years.

    Comment

    • OSUFan_88
      Outback Jesus
      • Jul 2004
      • 25642

      #17
      Re: Who are the best players in the game?

      Originally posted by Ewing
      2005: AB 312, AVG 288, HR 22, OBP 356, SLU 567, OPS 923
      2006: AB 581, AVG 313, HR 58, OBP 425, SLU 659, OPS 1.084
      2007: AB 529, AVG 268, HR 47, OBP 392, SLU 584, OPS 976
      2008: AB 610, AVG 251, HR 48, OBP 339, SLU 543, OPS 882

      Now, I'm not going to say that last year was a good year for Ryan, because it wasn't in every way other than HR. However, to say that Howard is not one of the best players in the game is...well

      Too Old To Game Club

      Urban Meyer is lol.

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      • Ewing
        Banned
        • Mar 2009
        • 863

        #18
        Re: Who are the best players in the game?

        And if you look, his averages are dropping across the board. I don't think he'll ever touch his 2006 form again.

        Comment

        • OSUFan_88
          Outback Jesus
          • Jul 2004
          • 25642

          #19
          Re: Who are the best players in the game?

          Originally posted by Ewing
          And if you look, his averages are dropping across the board. I don't think he'll ever touch his 2006 form again.
          Probably not, but average, in my opinion, is an overrated stat. BABIP, Slugging, and OBP are the main stats you want to look at. An out is an out, as there is no such thing as a "good out." Sacrifice flies and Bunts count against OBP, so that affects it a little, but not enough to have any meaningful change.
          Too Old To Game Club

          Urban Meyer is lol.

          Comment

          • Ewing
            Banned
            • Mar 2009
            • 863

            #20
            Re: Who are the best players in the game?

            Originally posted by OSUFan_88
            Probably not, but average, in my opinion, is an overrated stat. BABIP, Slugging, and OBP are the main stats you want to look at. An out is an out, as there is no such thing as a "good out." Sacrifice flies and Bunts count against OBP, so that affects it a little, but not enough to have any meaningful change.
            I said averages. As in BA, OBP, SLG and whatever else you wanna throw at him. His OBP has gone down nearly 100 points since 2006 and his SLG has gone down over that. You really wanna tell me a guy who's dropped off in production the last two years is better than guys who are rising in production?

            Comment

            • DTX3
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jun 2003
              • 13022

              #21
              Re: Who are the best players in the game?

              All you need to know is, Albert Pujols, and Manny Ramirez.
              XBL: DTX3
              PSN: DTX987
              WII U: DodgerBlue760

              Comment

              • Marino
                Moderator
                • Jan 2008
                • 18113

                #22
                Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                Originally posted by DTX3
                All you need to know is, Albert Pujols, and Manny Ramirez.
                And Clayton Kershaw.:wink:

                Comment

                • OSUFan_88
                  Outback Jesus
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 25642

                  #23
                  Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                  Originally posted by Ewing
                  I said averages. As in BA, OBP, SLG and whatever else you wanna throw at him. His OBP has gone down nearly 100 points since 2006 and his SLG has gone down over that. You really wanna tell me a guy who's dropped off in production the last two years is better than guys who are rising in production?
                  2006 is a special year that is reserved for MVP players.
                  2008 is a down year that I don't expect to see again.
                  2007 is the real Ryan Howard. He isn't going to hit for average, but he is going to get on base and get XBH, driving in runs, and being a force in the order.
                  Too Old To Game Club

                  Urban Meyer is lol.

                  Comment

                  • Ewing
                    Banned
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 863

                    #24
                    Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                    Originally posted by OSUFan_88
                    2006 is a special year that is reserved for MVP players.
                    2008 is a down year that I don't expect to see again.
                    2007 is the real Ryan Howard. He isn't going to hit for average, but he is going to get on base and get XBH, driving in runs, and being a force in the order.
                    If he can bounce back to 2007 form, he'll be in the discussion for best in the game, but as of now, he was atrocious in 2008 against lefties and good, not great and certainly not best. As of today, among first basemen, I'd rather have Pujols (that'll never change), Teixeira, Berkman, Cabrera and Youkilis.

                    Comment

                    • OSUFan_88
                      Outback Jesus
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 25642

                      #25
                      Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                      Originally posted by Ewing
                      If he can bounce back to 2007 form, he'll be in the discussion for best in the game, but as of now, he was atrocious in 2008 against lefties and good, not great and certainly not best. As of today, among first basemen, I'd rather have Pujols (that'll never change), Teixeira, Berkman, Cabrera and Youkilis.
                      And I'd rather have Pujols and maybe Berkman and Teixeira.

                      Cabrera is too fat to play 1B and Youk doesn't get enough XBH. So, yeah, I'd say top 3 first basemen = One of the best players in the game.
                      Too Old To Game Club

                      Urban Meyer is lol.

                      Comment

                      • Ewing
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 863

                        #26
                        Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                        Originally posted by OSUFan_88
                        And I'd rather have Pujols and maybe Berkman and Teixeira.

                        Cabrera is too fat to play 1B and Youk doesn't get enough XBH. So, yeah, I'd say top 3 first basemen = One of the best players in the game.
                        I do not have Cabrera's fielding stats in front of me but that's a valid point. He's not a great fielder, but for about three years he might have been the best hitter in the NL not named Pujols.

                        Youkilis had a higher slugging percentage than Howard last year. I'd say he's pretty good at getting XBH.

                        Comment

                        • daflyboys
                          Banned
                          • May 2003
                          • 18238

                          #27
                          Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                          I'm a Phillies fan and I'm not going to put Howard in the stable of best players. Last year, while AB vs. lefties fans were always left with a lack of confidence when he came to the plate with RISP. Further, the question was about players, not batters, and he must, must, must improve in the leather and throwing department. But, I also disagree that RBI's is not a relevant factor. However, RBI's also need to be measured in terms of when they happened. In late August through September of last year, Howard was one of the best players in the game and was "a" if not "the" major factor as to why the Phillies made the post-season push; that included the glove department.

                          To the OP, re: Howard. Whether he is one of the best or not, you need to tune in when he's AB, especially against a righty......because you have the chance to see some mammoth HR's.

                          Comment

                          • Ewing
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 863

                            #28
                            Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                            Originally posted by daflyboys
                            I'm a Phillies fan and I'm not going to put Howard in the stable of best players. Last year, while AB vs. lefties fans were always left with a lack of confidence when he came to the plate with RISP. Further, the question was about players, not batters, and he must, must, must improve in the leather and throwing department. But, I also disagree that RBI's is not a relevant factor. However, RBI's also need to be measured in terms of when they happened. In late August through September of last year, Howard was one of the best players in the game and was "a" if not "the" major factor as to why the Phillies made the post-season push; that included the glove department.

                            To the OP, re: Howard. Whether he is one of the best or not, you need to tune in when he's AB, especially against a righty......because you have the chance to see some mammoth HR's.
                            I'm with you on everything except RBI's. I think it's too much of a team driven statistic to use on individuals and judge them by it. Also, games in April and May count just as much as August and September when it comes down to who makes the playoffs.

                            Comment

                            • Speedy
                              #Ace
                              • Apr 2008
                              • 16143

                              #29
                              Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                              Originally posted by Ewing
                              I'm with you on everything except RBI's. I think it's too much of a team driven statistic to use on individuals and judge them by it. Also, games in April and May count just as much as August and September when it comes down to who makes the playoffs.
                              Dude, I'm not sure if you've ever watched baseball but RBIs are the most important stat in the game when talking about hitters. Average, HRs, OPB don't mean anything if a player can't deliver in the clutch and bring runners home. I mean if a player has 2 on w/2 out and he walks or bunts for a hit...Well, eventually, the inning is successfull if he and the other runners on score and someone drives them home.

                              As stated earlier, in order to win the game the winning team must outscore the opponent. If you personally could ask every major league player and/or manager, each one would say the most important stat is the RBI.
                              Originally posted by Gibson88
                              Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
                              It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

                              Comment

                              • Ewing
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2009
                                • 863

                                #30
                                Re: Who are the best players in the game?

                                Originally posted by WakeUnc2321
                                Dude, I'm not sure if you've ever watched baseball but RBIs are the most important stat in the game when talking about hitters. Average, HRs, OPB don't mean anything if a player can't deliver in the clutch and bring runners home. I mean if a player has 2 on w/2 out and he walks or bunts for a hit...Well, eventually, the inning is successfull if he and the other runners on score and someone drives them home.

                                As stated earlier, in order to win the game the winning team must outscore the opponent. If you personally could ask every major league player and/or manager, each one would say the most important stat is the RBI.
                                You couldn't be more wrong. RBI's are a team dependent statistic. You know a player amasses RBI's? By having others in front of him get on base. Here's a line from 2007, solely RBI's:

                                Player A: 105
                                Player B: 81

                                If you think Player A is a better player, you just said Jeff Francouer was better than Hanley Ramirez that year.

                                On top of that, RBI's and "clutch" is something completely different. There are several ways to determine if someone is clutch. I for one thing the term is very loose and don't use it oftern myself. However, there is a Clutch stat developed using something called the Leverage Index.

                                Leverage Index: A measure of how important a particular situation is in a baseball game depending on the inning, score, outs, and number of players on base, created by Tom Tango.

                                Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment.
                                Stephen Drew lead all of baseball last year with 2.09. Howard's was -0.72. That's right, negative.

                                Also, I'd never take the opinion of manager seriously when Dusty Baker has a job. The guy would rather have an out happen than a walk. Also, do you know what the best general mangers would say? They never taken into account RBI's when acquring players.

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