Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

[wwharton]

Guys have always been cheating. Period. It just takes a little different form today. I'm just glad they didn't have steroids when I was playing. I don't know what I would have done.

When asked if players known to take performance-enhancing drugs should be in the Hall of Fame, Gibson responded, "Oh yeah, I think so."

We hear the opinions of the media and fans all the time, but I think it's rare that a player, especially one of Gibson's stature, opens up like this on such a touchy subject. I suspect that a lot of players would probably agree with Gibson, even if they might not do so on the record.

I agree with pretty much all his thoughts on the issue.

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/07/14/bob-gibson-guys-have-always-been-cheating-period/?icid=main|aimzones|dl3|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fmlb.fanhouse.com%2F2009%2F07%2F14%2Fbob-gibson-guys-have-always-been-cheating-period%2F

[dalnet22]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I agree with him. However, I don't think that because they've always been cheating, it's ok to let these players into the hall of fame. If you're caught cheating, you deserve to be punished.

Anyone who doesn't have proof against them should be considered fair game for the hall of fame. Anyone who's been proven to have cheated should not be allowed in. Their records should probably be left alone because that's too complicated to process.

[mgoblue]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I agree. Local sports radio was talking about the baseball fans who pine for the past when the game was "pure"...That's just a rose-colored glasses view of history, the guys in the past cheated, just in different ways.

I do think the MLB should try and cut out cheating, but to imply that the guys in the past never cheated is just crazy talk.

[wwharton]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I agree with him. However, I don't think that because they've always been cheating, it's ok to let these players into the hall of fame. If you're caught cheating, you deserve to be punished.

Anyone who doesn't have proof against them should be considered fair game for the hall of fame. Anyone who's been proven to have cheated should not be allowed in. Their records should probably be left alone because that's too complicated to process.

This is the same "problem" (lack of a better word) with all the debates about how much jail time someone gets for one thing, vs what someone else gets. Every player who has been caught cheating has been punished. People overreact with how much someone should be punished for anything. Even this current debate about Manny's 50 games since he was able to do a minor league stint before coming back. Mountains out of mole hills.

If you don't think any player that cheated should be allowed in the HOF, that's cool and I just disagree. I'm just saying the reason shouldn't be because they deserve to be punished bc anyone who's proven to have broken any rules has been punished by the MLB.

As for the "proof" discussion, it's a slippery slope and I don't know why Selig is feeding into it. As Gibson said, players have been cheating forever, the "how" is all that's changed. So does that mean those players back in the day deserve a place in the HOF more than todays players bc it's easier to catch, the media is more against the players than back then and media access and technology makes it much harder to sweep things under the rug? Personally (and it's cool if you and most disagree), if you can't go back and check all the players in the HOF and prove that none of them did any kind of cheating then it shouldn't even be a consideration during HOF voting imo. If they get caught, the MLB punishes them what they feel is appropriate and then we just move on.

[SPTO]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I agree. Local sports radio was talking about the baseball fans who pine for the past when the game was "pure"...That's just a rose-colored glasses view of history, the guys in the past cheated, just in different ways.

I do think the MLB should try and cut out cheating, but to imply that the guys in the past never cheated is just crazy talk.

I agree to a certain extent. Yes it's true that players have all looked for an edge and have cheated in some ways (corked bats, pine tar, doctoring baseballs) but I think juicing yourself up to hit more HRs or in the case of marginal players, just to get to the Bigs is a different can of worms altogether. Of course MLB fed into it by juicing balls back in the hey day of the steroid era (c'mon do you HONESTLY believe the baseballs weren't fooled around with in some fashion?) At least when players cheated in the past it wasn't something so ridiculous that it changed the fabric of the game.

[wwharton]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I agree to a certain extent. Yes it's true that players have all looked for an edge and have cheated in some ways (corked bats, pine tar, doctoring baseballs) but I think juicing yourself up to hit more HRs or in the case of marginal players, just to get to the Bigs is a different can of worms altogether. Of course MLB fed into it by juicing balls back in the hey day of the steroid era (c'mon do you HONESTLY believe the baseballs weren't fooled around with in some fashion?) At least when players cheated in the past it wasn't something so ridiculous that it changed the fabric of the game.

Balls, stadiums, mound height... we just decide (with a push from the media) what we consider "cheating" and what's just natural changes.

I think I feel the exact opposite of you when it comes to "drugs". Don't mean to beat a dead horse (bc I've said this in the other PED threads) but we have no problem with players taking supplements and other things to help them train harder, longer, recover, etc. It's not until one of them is proven dangerous to health (and therefore a threat to children following in their role model's footsteps) that we think it's bad. If there were no dangerous side effects to steroids we'd have no problem with every player in the majors juicing up. I actually think it's funny (in a sad way) that PEDs are considered cheating. There are plenty of PEDs that are allowed... if players are taking anything not on the "approved list" then that means there are many things on the list that are fine to take.

[Scottdau]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

So all you guys that say you agree where was all this agreeing in the Bonds threads? Any ways good article thanks for sharing.

Also, who was the first was it Jose or some other guy?

[wwharton]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

So all you guys that say you agree where was all this agreeing in the Bonds threads? Any ways good article thanks for sharing.

pull the thread up, I'm sure you'll find my thoughts over there (arod and manny threads too).

[Scottdau]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

pull the thread up, I'm sure you'll find my thoughts over there (arod and manny threads too).

I know I am just messing.

[wwharton]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I hear you though. Lots of people flip flop, and it's because being against it really makes no sense if you think about it. Dudes love the long ball as much as chicks. We ate it all up, along with the spit balls and corked bats. I really can't understand why so many are crying foul now. I'm not saying it's ok to cheat or do illegal drugs but we were never trying to kick anyone out of the game and strip their records before.

[mgoblue]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

I hear you though. Lots of people flip flop, and it's because being against it really makes no sense if you think about it. Dudes love the long ball as much as chicks. We ate it all up, along with the spit balls and corked bats. I really can't understand why so many are crying foul now. I'm not saying it's ok to cheat or do illegal drugs but we were never trying to kick anyone out of the game and strip their records before.

Yeah, I agree...My point that the 40-50 year olds who pine for the "golden age of baseball" are completely forgetting what it was like back then...people just didn't know as much. In an ideal world there's no cheating, but the world's not ideal.

[Scottdau]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

Cheating has been a part of baseball for a LONGzGGGG time! So I don't really care that players were juicing. It is what it is. And I really enjoyed the hell out of that Sammy and Mark thing. We all knew they were juicing, but no body cared.

[Knight165]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

Cheating has been a part of baseball for a LONGzGGGG time! So I don't really care that players were juicing. It is what it is. And I really enjoyed the hell out of that Sammy and Mark thing. We all knew they were juicing, but no body cared.

Well if that's the case....then we might as well let guys use titanium bats....scuff balls.....use the spitter.....etc, right?

Sure...there were cheaters, will always be guys who try to cheat and those that will get away with it.

I still don't see how that makes any of it right. To get complacent about it is exactly what cheaters want.......get so blase about it that people just throw their hands up and say ..."it is what it is".(oh...that just happened!)

Christ...it's a simple game....throw the friggin' ball....hit the friggin' ball.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the "everybody is doing it" excuse.

....and as for Bob Gibson.....great pitcher, but that grumpy son of a whatever didn't want to say two words ....TO HIS OWN TEAMMATES ...when he was playing!, but he wants us to listen to him now?

M.K.
Knight165

[Speedy]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

Well if that's the case....then we might as well let guys...use the spitter, right?

Sure...there were cheaters, will always be guys who try to cheat and those that will get away with it.

I'd love to see what would happen if a pitcher gets caught trying the spitter. On a case by case basis, I think that's extremely tame compared to steriods - plus it would be awesome to see the spit flying in X-mo.

[wwharton]

Re: Bob Gibson speaks out about cheating.

Well if that's the case....then we might as well let guys use titanium bats....scuff balls.....use the spitter.....etc, right?

Sure...there were cheaters, will always be guys who try to cheat and those that will get away with it.

I still don't see how that makes any of it right. To get complacent about it is exactly what cheaters want.......get so blase about it that people just throw their hands up and say ..."it is what it is".(oh...that just happened!)

Christ...it's a simple game....throw the friggin' ball....hit the friggin' ball.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the "everybody is doing it" excuse.

....and as for Bob Gibson.....great pitcher, but that grumpy son of a whatever didn't want to say two words ....TO HIS OWN TEAMMATES ...when he was playing!, but he wants us to listen to him now?

M.K.
Knight165

No, but your extreme examples are just as outrageous as suggesting that anyone who got caught doing those things should be locked out of any HOF consideration with all statistics thrown out of the window. You sit down and write up punishment for each of these situations and once the "cheating" player serves his punishment that's it. There shouldn't be any lynch mob mentality swarming around whether the punishment was enough and there certainly shouldn't be a group of reporters holding more weight on how players go down in history over the members of MLB creating these rules and punishments.

And btw, all those things you mentioned should be considered worse than PED because there are still PED that are allowed to be taken by MLB players.