Imagine that

[Vince]

Re: Imagine that

*cough*contract year *cough*

[SPTO]

Re: Imagine that

Ok well being from Toronto I can give some perspective on this Blue Jays team and why they underachieved the last few yrs.

First of all, some of the players on this team were very moody and didn't give it their all. The clubhouse atmosphere was also pretty dreadful as some players didn't like the style that Buck Martinez installed and even when Carlos Tosca came aboard the problem players were still pretty petulant. There was also the problem of some players not being right for the style of ball that the team was trying to instill.

So i'm going to go through the 2 names mentioned in the original poster's post as well as some names from last yr and a couple yrs earlier because the attitude of those guys rubbed itself onto the players that were left on the club.

Loazia: Always have been a streaky pitcher who usually has a pretty good first half and then falls apart in the heat of the summer. So far he's living up to his M.O. if he does perform well after the All-Star break then we can chalk it up to Chicago being the right place for him.

Jose Cruz Jr.: Always wanted to be a starter yet when competition arrived in the form of Vernon Wells he wilted. Cruz has only had one truly great year under his belt where he hit for avg. and power. So far he's doing pretty good in SF and I think it's because he knows his job is secure and also because of Felipe Alou.

Chris Carpenter: Injury prone, been on the DL in STL. I hear he's going off the DL soon tho.

Joey Hamilton: a waste of contract, couldn't perform up to expectations placed on him and had too many injuries.

Raul Mondesi: A huge waste of contract, didn't hustle, hardly gave it his all in the field and in the batter's box. Mondesi was emblematic of the corossive atmosphere in the Jays clubhouse as he was petulant, moody and generally wanted things to go HIS WAY.

Felipe Lopez: was more of a Buck Martinez guy, didn't fit in team's plans.

Darren Fletcher: deteriated considerably yet was put in the starting lineup everyday. This most likely caused strife in the clubhouse.

Brad Fullmer: didn't play hard, was too busy thinking about trying to hit the long ball, impatient at the plate.

Billy Koch: players had little confidence in his ability to close out ballgames.

Buck Martinez: I hate having to say this but it's true. Buck was too stubborn on his idea of Little Ball being the right scheme for a team that was designed to crush the ball. He was also far too loyal to players that were expected to do well but didn't. In the end Buck wasn't fit to be a manager.

Finally last but not least Carlos Delgado, last year Carlos was bothered by injuries and tried to overcompensate by pulling the ball. He had a terrible season by his standards and at the end of the last season he verbally abused a reporter when asked about the team's performance. There were even rumours at that time that Delgado would be traded. The thing was that Delgado in retrospect probably didn't see eye to eye with Buck Martinez as Carlos didn't play with any hustle and gave up way too early on. Carlos was also probably influenced by the country club atmosphere of the team he joined in the mid 90s and this attitude has always been a part of his mental makeup. Delgado has always been a laidback leader who lets his bat do the talking but in the last couple yrs it seemed as if he didn't have the fire to do much and just gave up on the team.

So there you have it. Most of the players from last yr and a couple yrs earlier were just not the right fit for the club. The team is performing the way it is because they have players that "gasp" actually want to play in Toronto and guys who enjoy beng in each others company. Carlos Tosca reminds me a lot of Cito Gaston. A guy who knows how to work with the personalities on his club but unlike Cito, Tosca actually knows how to manage a game a lot better.

This team has a very bright future.

[SPTO]

Re: Imagine that

Ok well being from Toronto I can give some perspective on this Blue Jays team and why they underachieved the last few yrs.

First of all, some of the players on this team were very moody and didn't give it their all. The clubhouse atmosphere was also pretty dreadful as some players didn't like the style that Buck Martinez installed and even when Carlos Tosca came aboard the problem players were still pretty petulant. There was also the problem of some players not being right for the style of ball that the team was trying to instill.

So i'm going to go through the 2 names mentioned in the original poster's post as well as some names from last yr and a couple yrs earlier because the attitude of those guys rubbed itself onto the players that were left on the club.

Loazia: Always have been a streaky pitcher who usually has a pretty good first half and then falls apart in the heat of the summer. So far he's living up to his M.O. if he does perform well after the All-Star break then we can chalk it up to Chicago being the right place for him.

Jose Cruz Jr.: Always wanted to be a starter yet when competition arrived in the form of Vernon Wells he wilted. Cruz has only had one truly great year under his belt where he hit for avg. and power. So far he's doing pretty good in SF and I think it's because he knows his job is secure and also because of Felipe Alou.

Chris Carpenter: Injury prone, been on the DL in STL. I hear he's going off the DL soon tho.

Joey Hamilton: a waste of contract, couldn't perform up to expectations placed on him and had too many injuries.

Raul Mondesi: A huge waste of contract, didn't hustle, hardly gave it his all in the field and in the batter's box. Mondesi was emblematic of the corossive atmosphere in the Jays clubhouse as he was petulant, moody and generally wanted things to go HIS WAY.

Felipe Lopez: was more of a Buck Martinez guy, didn't fit in team's plans.

Darren Fletcher: deteriated considerably yet was put in the starting lineup everyday. This most likely caused strife in the clubhouse.

Brad Fullmer: didn't play hard, was too busy thinking about trying to hit the long ball, impatient at the plate.

Billy Koch: players had little confidence in his ability to close out ballgames.

Buck Martinez: I hate having to say this but it's true. Buck was too stubborn on his idea of Little Ball being the right scheme for a team that was designed to crush the ball. He was also far too loyal to players that were expected to do well but didn't. In the end Buck wasn't fit to be a manager.

Finally last but not least Carlos Delgado, last year Carlos was bothered by injuries and tried to overcompensate by pulling the ball. He had a terrible season by his standards and at the end of the last season he verbally abused a reporter when asked about the team's performance. There were even rumours at that time that Delgado would be traded. The thing was that Delgado in retrospect probably didn't see eye to eye with Buck Martinez as Carlos didn't play with any hustle and gave up way too early on. Carlos was also probably influenced by the country club atmosphere of the team he joined in the mid 90s and this attitude has always been a part of his mental makeup. Delgado has always been a laidback leader who lets his bat do the talking but in the last couple yrs it seemed as if he didn't have the fire to do much and just gave up on the team.

So there you have it. Most of the players from last yr and a couple yrs earlier were just not the right fit for the club. The team is performing the way it is because they have players that "gasp" actually want to play in Toronto and guys who enjoy beng in each others company. Carlos Tosca reminds me a lot of Cito Gaston. A guy who knows how to work with the personalities on his club but unlike Cito, Tosca actually knows how to manage a game a lot better.

This team has a very bright future.

[SPTO]

Re: Imagine that

Ok well being from Toronto I can give some perspective on this Blue Jays team and why they underachieved the last few yrs.

First of all, some of the players on this team were very moody and didn't give it their all. The clubhouse atmosphere was also pretty dreadful as some players didn't like the style that Buck Martinez installed and even when Carlos Tosca came aboard the problem players were still pretty petulant. There was also the problem of some players not being right for the style of ball that the team was trying to instill.

So i'm going to go through the 2 names mentioned in the original poster's post as well as some names from last yr and a couple yrs earlier because the attitude of those guys rubbed itself onto the players that were left on the club.

Loazia: Always have been a streaky pitcher who usually has a pretty good first half and then falls apart in the heat of the summer. So far he's living up to his M.O. if he does perform well after the All-Star break then we can chalk it up to Chicago being the right place for him.

Jose Cruz Jr.: Always wanted to be a starter yet when competition arrived in the form of Vernon Wells he wilted. Cruz has only had one truly great year under his belt where he hit for avg. and power. So far he's doing pretty good in SF and I think it's because he knows his job is secure and also because of Felipe Alou.

Chris Carpenter: Injury prone, been on the DL in STL. I hear he's going off the DL soon tho.

Joey Hamilton: a waste of contract, couldn't perform up to expectations placed on him and had too many injuries.

Raul Mondesi: A huge waste of contract, didn't hustle, hardly gave it his all in the field and in the batter's box. Mondesi was emblematic of the corossive atmosphere in the Jays clubhouse as he was petulant, moody and generally wanted things to go HIS WAY.

Felipe Lopez: was more of a Buck Martinez guy, didn't fit in team's plans.

Darren Fletcher: deteriated considerably yet was put in the starting lineup everyday. This most likely caused strife in the clubhouse.

Brad Fullmer: didn't play hard, was too busy thinking about trying to hit the long ball, impatient at the plate.

Billy Koch: players had little confidence in his ability to close out ballgames.

Buck Martinez: I hate having to say this but it's true. Buck was too stubborn on his idea of Little Ball being the right scheme for a team that was designed to crush the ball. He was also far too loyal to players that were expected to do well but didn't. In the end Buck wasn't fit to be a manager.

Finally last but not least Carlos Delgado, last year Carlos was bothered by injuries and tried to overcompensate by pulling the ball. He had a terrible season by his standards and at the end of the last season he verbally abused a reporter when asked about the team's performance. There were even rumours at that time that Delgado would be traded. The thing was that Delgado in retrospect probably didn't see eye to eye with Buck Martinez as Carlos didn't play with any hustle and gave up way too early on. Carlos was also probably influenced by the country club atmosphere of the team he joined in the mid 90s and this attitude has always been a part of his mental makeup. Delgado has always been a laidback leader who lets his bat do the talking but in the last couple yrs it seemed as if he didn't have the fire to do much and just gave up on the team.

So there you have it. Most of the players from last yr and a couple yrs earlier were just not the right fit for the club. The team is performing the way it is because they have players that "gasp" actually want to play in Toronto and guys who enjoy beng in each others company. Carlos Tosca reminds me a lot of Cito Gaston. A guy who knows how to work with the personalities on his club but unlike Cito, Tosca actually knows how to manage a game a lot better.

This team has a very bright future.

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
*cough*contract year *cough*

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is really unfair in this case. Loaiza is currently playing under a minor league contract that he signed with the Sox for well under a million. Nobody wanted him. The only reason he made the Sox roster was because of Dan Wright's injury.

He had a "last chance" and has made the most of it. You make it sound like he is one of these guys in the last year of a big contract who finally starts trying because he realizes the gravy train ride is almost done. Not in this case, the gravy train ride was *already* done for Loaiza and he is fighting to stay in the majors.

As far as Loaiza being a good 1st half pitcher, well in May they said he was an April pitcher. His history is actually that he falters in May, not after the all-star break. Check the stats.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fantasy/baseball/news/2003/05/26/fantasy_mailbag/

So he may very well falter down the stretch but I think the guy deserves some credit for reviving his career instead of all this cynicism

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
*cough*contract year *cough*

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is really unfair in this case. Loaiza is currently playing under a minor league contract that he signed with the Sox for well under a million. Nobody wanted him. The only reason he made the Sox roster was because of Dan Wright's injury.

He had a "last chance" and has made the most of it. You make it sound like he is one of these guys in the last year of a big contract who finally starts trying because he realizes the gravy train ride is almost done. Not in this case, the gravy train ride was *already* done for Loaiza and he is fighting to stay in the majors.

As far as Loaiza being a good 1st half pitcher, well in May they said he was an April pitcher. His history is actually that he falters in May, not after the all-star break. Check the stats.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fantasy/baseball/news/2003/05/26/fantasy_mailbag/

So he may very well falter down the stretch but I think the guy deserves some credit for reviving his career instead of all this cynicism

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
*cough*contract year *cough*

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is really unfair in this case. Loaiza is currently playing under a minor league contract that he signed with the Sox for well under a million. Nobody wanted him. The only reason he made the Sox roster was because of Dan Wright's injury.

He had a "last chance" and has made the most of it. You make it sound like he is one of these guys in the last year of a big contract who finally starts trying because he realizes the gravy train ride is almost done. Not in this case, the gravy train ride was *already* done for Loaiza and he is fighting to stay in the majors.

As far as Loaiza being a good 1st half pitcher, well in May they said he was an April pitcher. His history is actually that he falters in May, not after the all-star break. Check the stats.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fantasy/baseball/news/2003/05/26/fantasy_mailbag/

So he may very well falter down the stretch but I think the guy deserves some credit for reviving his career instead of all this cynicism

[GCrusher23]

Re: Imagine that

Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

[GCrusher23]

Re: Imagine that

Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

[GCrusher23]

Re: Imagine that

Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That doesn't even take much imagination

Detroit is only 12 wins behind the Sox and Loaiza has 9 of them. Sure his replacement would have won a few of those but then factor in that Loaiza has been the Sox stopper for all the losing streaks.

So I bet Detroit would be much too close for comfort if the Sox did not have Loaiza

Also the Tigers just took 2 out of 3 from the Sox at U.S Cellular field One of those games they beat Loaiza 1-0!

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That doesn't even take much imagination

Detroit is only 12 wins behind the Sox and Loaiza has 9 of them. Sure his replacement would have won a few of those but then factor in that Loaiza has been the Sox stopper for all the losing streaks.

So I bet Detroit would be much too close for comfort if the Sox did not have Loaiza

Also the Tigers just took 2 out of 3 from the Sox at U.S Cellular field One of those games they beat Loaiza 1-0!

[Goaty]

Re: Imagine that

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Then you've got another "Imagine that": What if Loaiza didn't have such a good year for the Sox? They could have a worse record than the Tigers.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That doesn't even take much imagination

Detroit is only 12 wins behind the Sox and Loaiza has 9 of them. Sure his replacement would have won a few of those but then factor in that Loaiza has been the Sox stopper for all the losing streaks.

So I bet Detroit would be much too close for comfort if the Sox did not have Loaiza

Also the Tigers just took 2 out of 3 from the Sox at U.S Cellular field One of those games they beat Loaiza 1-0!