Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

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  • DrJones
    All Star
    • Mar 2003
    • 9109

    #2341
    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

    Originally posted by Madden08PCgmr
    Don't have any skin in the game, but I think Maddon deserves some credit for keeping that Rays team competitive while constantly jettisoning expensive pieces.
    He does deserve credit. I'm not saying he's a bad manager.

    But his current resume falls short of HOF-worthy IMO.
    Originally posted by Thrash13
    Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
    Originally posted by slickdtc
    DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
    Originally posted by Kipnis22
    yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

    Comment

    • Madden08PCgmr
      MVP
      • Feb 2017
      • 2441

      #2342
      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

      Originally posted by DrJones
      He does deserve credit. I'm not saying he's a bad manager.

      But his current resume falls short of HOF-worthy IMO.
      In a division with the Red Sox and Yankees, he constantly had his best players leaving and getting shipped off.

      The deck was stacked against him.
      You want free speech?
      Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

      Comment

      • DrJones
        All Star
        • Mar 2003
        • 9109

        #2343
        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

        Originally posted by Madden08PCgmr
        In a division with the Red Sox and Yankees, he constantly had his best players leaving and getting shipped off.

        The deck was stacked against him.
        I don't disagree, but the deck is still stacked against the Rays (bottom 5 payroll in MLB every year, brutal division), and they've still made the playoffs each of the last 5 seasons (and missed with 90 wins the year before). Clearly Tampa's success against the odds goes beyond just Maddon.

        If Maddon truly possessed some manager secret sauce, it should've showed up during his Angels tenure. He wasn't the problem in Anaheim, but he couldn't overcome Arte Moreno's baseball terrorism, either.

        I think Maddon is about 200 wins and another playoff appearance or two short. As is, he ranks behind Bochy, Dusty, Francona, Davey Johnson ('86 Mets World Series, led 4 different teams to division titles over 25 years), and probably our old friend Sweet Lou Piniella ('90 Reds World Series, Seattle legend, 6 division titles, 450 more wins than Maddon, star of a million YouTube highlights). Not that it matters. If Maddon never manages again, his legacy of innovation and respectability in Tampa and iconic triumph in Chicago is assured regardless, Cooperstown or not.
        Originally posted by Thrash13
        Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
        Originally posted by slickdtc
        DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
        Originally posted by Kipnis22
        yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

        Comment

        • Ghost Of The Year
          T Bone
          • Mar 2014
          • 6398

          #2344
          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

          Originally posted by DrJones
          I don't disagree, but the deck is still stacked against the Rays (bottom 5 payroll in MLB every year, brutal division), and they've still made the playoffs each of the last 5 seasons (and missed with 90 wins the year before). Clearly Tampa's success against the odds goes beyond just Maddon.

          If Maddon truly possessed some manager secret sauce, it should've showed up during his Angels tenure. He wasn't the problem in Anaheim, but he couldn't overcome Arte Moreno's baseball terrorism, either.

          I think Maddon is about 200 wins and another playoff appearance or two short. As is, he ranks behind Bochy, Dusty, Francona, Davey Johnson ('86 Mets World Series, led 4 different teams to division titles over 25 years), and probably our old friend Sweet Lou Piniella ('90 Reds World Series, Seattle legend, 6 division titles, 450 more wins than Maddon, star of a million YouTube highlights). Not that it matters. If Maddon never manages again, his legacy of innovation and respectability in Tampa and iconic triumph in Chicago is assured regardless, Cooperstown or not.
          People in Chicago won't forget Maddon anytime soon, especially if they don't win another WS until 2124.
          Talk about things nobody cares.

          Screw Discord. Make OS Great Again.

          Comment

          • Sportsforever
            NL MVP
            • Mar 2005
            • 20368

            #2345
            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

            I really thought of Joe Maddon as a baseball genius when he was in Tampa Bay; when he left, I expected the Rays to fall off hard. Instead, they've been just fine without him (actually, Cash has done better...higher win % and more playoff appearances). Meanwhile, Maddon didn't look great in Chicago...I think they won in 2016 despite him and man...that team really underperformed after 2016.
            "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

            Comment

            • DrJones
              All Star
              • Mar 2003
              • 9109

              #2346
              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

              Theo Epstein is likely the only one associated with the 2016 Chicago Cubs who will be enshrined in Cooperstown someday, and given the collection of young talent on that team, it's shocking.

              World Series champions with no current Hall of Famers on the rosters, and their future prospects:

              1981/1988 Dodgers: No (although Lasorda's already a HOF manager)

              1997 Marlins: Unlikely (Sheffield might get lucky with the right Veterans Committee makeup, I suppose; maybe Kevin Brown's candidacy is re-evaluated in the distant future? Leyland's already in as a manager)

              2002 Angels: No (K-Rod had the best chance)

              2008 Phillies: Maybe (I think Utley gets voted in after a few years; Rollins seems like the type who might get some Veterans Committee love)

              2010/2012/2014 Giants: Yes (Buster is a lock)

              2011 Cardinals: Yes (Pujols obviously, most likely Yadi)

              2015 Royals: No

              2016 Cubs: No (Epstein will get in as an executive)

              2017/2022 Astros: Yes (Verlander is a lock, Beltran will get in, almost certainly Altuve, possibly others)

              2018 Red Sox: Yes (Betts is a lock, Devers in on track)

              2019 Nationals: Yes (Scherzer is a lock, Soto is on track)

              2020 Dodgers: Yes (Kershaw is a lock, Mookie again, Seager might if he can stay healthy and productive in his 30s)

              2021 Braves: Probably (Freeman should make it, barring a catastrophic injury/decline; too early to tell with others)

              2023 Rangers: Yes (Scherzer and Seager again; too early to tell with others)

              With the '81 Dodgers (Garvey, Valenzuela), '88 Dodgers (Gibson, Hershiser), '02 Angels (Glaus), and '16 Cubs (Bryant, probably Rizzo, maybe Lester or Arrieta if everything went right, plus so many promising youngsters), it seemed inevitable that they were sending folks to Cooperstown.

              The 2015 Royals are unique in that they're the only Series-winning team that, even at the time, didn't really look like they had any likely Hall of Famers. Which is pretty cool, really. A true "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" underdog with an amazing two-year run.

              EDIT: The 2005 White Sox avoid this list via technicality. Frank Thomas got a ring, but suffered a season-ending injury in mid-July.
              Last edited by DrJones; 04-02-2024, 01:27 PM.
              Originally posted by Thrash13
              Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
              Originally posted by slickdtc
              DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
              Originally posted by Kipnis22
              yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

              Comment

              • Picci
                MVP
                • Feb 2003
                • 4517

                #2347
                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                Originally posted by Ghost Of The Year
                People in Chicago won't forget Maddon anytime soon, especially if they don't win another WS until 2124.



                Originally posted by DrJones

                The 2015 Royals are unique in that they're the only Series-winning team that, even at the time, didn't really look like they had any likely Hall of Famers. Which is pretty cool, really. A true "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" underdog with an amazing two-year run.
                Going to argue for 2015 WS Champ & MVP, 8× All-Star (2013–2018, 2021, 2023), 5× Gold Glove Award (2013–2016, 2018), C Salvador Pérez "El Nino" , especially how much he's revered from his countrymen.

                Comment

                • DrJones
                  All Star
                  • Mar 2003
                  • 9109

                  #2348
                  Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                  Originally posted by Picci
                  Going to argue for 2015 WS Champ & MVP, 8× All-Star (2013–2018, 2021, 2023), 5× Gold Glove Award (2013–2016, 2018), C Salvador Pérez "El Nino" , especially how much he's revered from his countrymen.
                  Sure, he's the Royals' best shot. But Posada (worse defensively than Perez, but a superior hitter) didn't make it past the 1st ballot. If Posada topped out at 3.8%, I have a difficult time seeing Salvy hit 75.
                  Originally posted by Thrash13
                  Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                  Originally posted by slickdtc
                  DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                  Originally posted by Kipnis22
                  yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

                  Comment

                  • bhurst99
                    All Star
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 9137

                    #2349
                    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                    Originally posted by DrJones
                    Sure, he's the Royals' best shot. But Posada (worse defensively than Perez, but a superior hitter) didn't make it past the 1st ballot. If Posada topped out at 3.8%, I have a difficult time seeing Salvy hit 75.
                    Perez is still only 33. He's at 250 homers and has a realistic shot at 300 homers before his career is done. Seven of the eight catchers who have hit 300 homers are in the Hall. I like his chances if he can continue being relatively productive. Not a first ballot Hall of Famer but I could see him getting in after a couple seasons of voting.
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                    • DrJones
                      All Star
                      • Mar 2003
                      • 9109

                      #2350
                      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                      Originally posted by bhurst99
                      Perez is still only 33. He's at 250 homers and has a realistic shot at 300 homers before his career is done. Seven of the eight catchers who have hit 300 homers are in the Hall. I like his chances if he can continue being relatively productive. Not a first ballot Hall of Famer but I could see him getting in after a couple seasons of voting.
                      Posada .273/.374/.474, 121 OPS+
                      Perez .268/.301/.460, 105 OPS+

                      To reiterate: Posada hit 275 HR, won 4 World Series with the Yankees, was a much better hitter, got eliminated easily on the 1st ballot. An extra 25 HR would've upped his voting percentage from 4 to 75+?

                      By the time Perez becomes eligible, the vast majority of BBWAA voters will be new-school types - no way in hell they're voting for someone with a .300 OBP. Perez will need 400 HR or a prominent role in another WS title to have a chance. Posada has a better chance of reaching Cooperstown via Veterans Committee than Perez does via the writers.
                      Originally posted by Thrash13
                      Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                      Originally posted by slickdtc
                      DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                      Originally posted by Kipnis22
                      yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

                      Comment

                      • bhurst99
                        All Star
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 9137

                        #2351
                        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                        Originally posted by DrJones
                        Posada .273/.374/.474, 121 OPS+
                        Perez .268/.301/.460, 105 OPS+

                        To reiterate: Posada hit 275 HR, won 4 World Series with the Yankees, was a much better hitter, got eliminated easily on the 1st ballot. An extra 25 HR would've upped his voting percentage from 4 to 75+?

                        By the time Perez becomes eligible, the vast majority of BBWAA voters will be new-school types - no way in hell they're voting for someone with a .300 OBP. Perez will need 400 HR or a prominent role in another WS title to have a chance. Posada has a better chance of reaching Cooperstown via Veterans Committee than Perez does via the writers.
                        Bad luck by Posada that his first year of eligibility was a completely stacked 2017 list. Check it out:

                        https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2017.shtml

                        He wouldn't have been among my 10 candidates either that year. That's an absurd field.

                        I agree he has a chance via the Veterans Committe but he was never known as a great fielding catcher whereas Perez has that reputation with five Gold Gloves.

                        I guess if Perez plays like more five years and we wait five years for him to become eligible, we can settle this debate in like 10-to-12 years.
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                        • DrJones
                          All Star
                          • Mar 2003
                          • 9109

                          #2352
                          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                          Originally posted by bhurst99
                          Bad luck by Posada that his first year of eligibility was a completely stacked 2017 list. Check it out:

                          https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2017.shtml

                          He wouldn't have been among my 10 candidates either that year. That's an absurd field.

                          I agree he has a chance via the Veterans Committe but he was never known as a great fielding catcher whereas Perez has that reputation with five Gold Gloves.
                          Don't think that'll carry much water with the WAR crowd. Perez has zero Fielding Bible Awards (essentially Gold Gloves for stats geeks). BTW the only position player in Cooperstown with a worse OBP than Perez is Bill Mazeroski.

                          Originally posted by bhurst99
                          I guess if Perez plays like more five years and we wait five years for him to become eligible, we can settle this debate in like 10-to-12 years.
                          No offence to the fine people of the OS forums, but I kinda hope I'm not still hanging around here in my mid-60s.
                          Originally posted by Thrash13
                          Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
                          Originally posted by slickdtc
                          DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
                          Originally posted by Kipnis22
                          yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

                          Comment

                          • Master Live 013
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Oct 2013
                            • 12428

                            #2353
                            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                            Posada is tied for 29th all-time for fWAR among catchers, Perez is, checks notes, 126th. Projections have him earning an additional 1.3fWAR this year, 1.0fWAR next year and 0.3 in 2026.


                            I will go on a limb and say Salvador won't get in through the regular process, if at all.
                            OSHA Inspector for the NBA.

                            Comment

                            • Sportsforever
                              NL MVP
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 20368

                              #2354
                              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                              I have never thought of Salvy as a future HOF, but last Sunday on baseball tonight Buster Olney called him “future HOF” Salvador Perez…that really surprised me. Who knows?


                              Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                              "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

                              Comment

                              • Speedy
                                #Ace
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 16143

                                #2355
                                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                                Originally posted by Sportsforever
                                I have never thought of Salvy as a future HOF, but last Sunday on baseball tonight Buster Olney called him “future HOF” Salvador Perez…that really surprised me. Who knows?


                                Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
                                The hall has no meaning to me without Andruw.

                                Rose colored glasses or not, it's crazy the best defensive CF ever can't get in.
                                Originally posted by Gibson88
                                Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
                                It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

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