Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It is astounding how good Bagwell's numbers are (better than Biggio)...look at his 1999 season as it rivals, and quite frankly was better, than Mike Trout's great year in 2012 - and Bagwell was a first basemen.

Hopefully he gets his due next year.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That Bagwell is still waiting is a crime against humanity. It makes me really angry. Just that stance alone should get him in; nevermind the 80 fWAR, his epic durability with a bad back, the HoF numbers, and being his franchise's all time best player (no, Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens don't count 100% as Astros).

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It is astounding how good Bagwell's numbers are (better than Biggio)...look at his 1999 season as it rivals, and quite frankly was better, than Mike Trout's great year in 2012 - and Bagwell was a first basemen.

Hopefully he gets his due next year.

I'm confused by the bolded part...how does that help Bagwell? A 1B SHOULD put up better numbers than a CF...

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

He did have better numbers but I was thinking also about the SBs too.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

He did have better numbers but I was thinking also about the SBs too.

Now that makes sense...I was confused that you were pointing out what a slugger Bagwell was AND at the 1B position...what a bonus!

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Walker is a tough case because he was pretty dominant and held his own against Sosa/McGwire. His triple slash .313/.400/.565, wOBA = .412 and wRC+ = 140 are all good enough.

My problem with Walker is, yes ballpark, but more than that I just don't think his career was quite long enough to put him up there with all timers in the OF. Not counting his cuppa coffee in 1989, he played from 1990 to 2005, but he only topped 140 games played in 4 of those seasons and in 5 of those seasons he didn't even top 400 AB.

Part of the fallout of that is that his counting numbers are not as high as you might expect with 383 HR and only 2160 hits for a guy who had some great batting averages.

Longevity is a problem if you don't make up for the games you don't play in by not playing well in the games you do, but Walker did.

Among players with 5,000+ plate appearances, he's 52nd all time in wRC+, basically in the same tier as guys like Alex Rodriguez, Chipper Jones, and Mike Piazza, and he was a pretty good fielder and baserunner as well.

His peak is also a bit weird in that he didn't really have one. Sure he had a ridiculous 1997 with 9.1 fWAR, but pretty much lived around 3-5 fWAR for his entire career otherwise. He accumulated 68.7 fWAR, but given his era and ballpark (although WAR accounts for both) and that he's Canadian (lol) I don't ever see him getting enough traction.

You ignored his monster 2001 season, when he put up a .350/.449/.662, 163 wRC+ line and 7.6 WAR. So Walker at his very peak (and when healthy) was basically an 8 win player and was still consistently a ~5 win player even when he was missing 20-30 games a year.

The performance outweighs the lack of longevity IMO, just as it has for plenty of other HOFers (come on down, Sandy Koufax and Joe DiMaggio), so I would vote for him.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Longevity is a problem if you don't make up for the games you don't play in by not playing well in the games you do, but Walker did.

Among players with 5,000+ plate appearances, he's 52nd all time in wRC+, basically in the same tier as guys like Alex Rodriguez, Chipper Jones, and Mike Piazza, and he was a pretty good fielder and baserunner as well.

You ignored his monster 2001 season, when he put up a .350/.449/.662, 163 wRC+ line and 7.6 WAR. So Walker at his very peak (and when healthy) was basically an 8 win player and was still consistently a ~5 win player even when he was missing 20-30 games a year.

The performance outweighs the lack of longevity IMO, just as it has for plenty of other HOFers (come on down, Sandy Koufax and Joe DiMaggio), so I would vote for him.

Walker is a tough exclusion for me. He was one of my favorite players of that era, but the counting stats are a big problem (less than 400 HR while playing at Coors?), as was his lack of durability (10 seasons stretched out over 15 years), and also his nth best seasons after the 2 phenomenal years we mentioned not really being HoF-worthy (only 3 other seasons topped or equaled 5 fWAR and barely...compare that to the peak of other HoF'ers and it doesn't stack up that well).

I also am not sure that normalized stats like wRC+ can adequately handle a pre-humidor/steriod era Coors environment, where Walker played most of his career. I mean is a simple subtracting out the league average really a bulletproof method in such a unique environment? Or at least not with enough confidence to base a whole HoF case on. I'm not sure this is fair to do since he was aging as well, but compare Walker's last full season w/o humidor (2001) to his first full season with humdor (2003). The difference is pretty striking.

I need to see not just the rate stats, but also the counting stats and a pu pu platter of MVPs, playoff success, individual accolades, and other stuff. Chipper and A-Rod, who you put up as comps, both dwarf Walker here where longevity and counting stats are concerned.

I mean, there's no denying some of Walker's stats are worthy of the HoF. You mentioned wRC+ and also his OPS+ among others, but even if you do believe that the league/era/park adjustments perfectly encapsulate and smooth out his advantage at Coors, you can also point out names like Jason Giambi, Kevin Mitchell, and Frank Howard who are HoVG players in Walker's rate-stat neighborhood. Being 52nd best on a list where the top 51 guys are all in the HoF would hold more weight.

For me, Walker is probably the first man out of the HoF. I wouldn't be mad either way, but he's probably not going to get there (15% on his 6th ballot and down from 20% on his 1st, and with a huge backlog of more deserving players like Bonds/Clemens/Bagwell/etc).

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Walker truly was a five tool player. I despise this thought process that playing at Coors field is a asterisk for by our career. You can't control where you play.

We have to put asterisks up for pitchers back in the day then too, when they pitched in safe havens.

Don't get me wrong, Walker's home and road splits are pretty damn extreme. But. We can not hold guys accountable for playing in certain parks.

That's the thought process of these idiotic voters. Well he played at Coors field for the majority of his career, that's a strike against him, well he played in the steroid era, that's a strike.

Walkers numbers speak volumes, he should be in.

Bagwell should have been a lock. He's just being penalized for playing in an era, which is wrong.







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[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Albert Belle. Not saying he should be in, but he should have been on the ballot longer. Of course he was universally despised by the BBWA.

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[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Walker truly was a five tool player. I despise this thought process that playing at Coors field is a asterisk for by our career. You can't control where you play.

We have to put asterisks up for pitchers back in the day then too, when they pitched in safe havens.

Don't get me wrong, Walker's home and road splits are pretty damn extreme. But. We can not hold guys accountable for playing in certain parks.

That's the thought process of these idiotic voters. Well he played at Coors field for the majority of his career, that's a strike against him, well he played in the steroid era, that's a strike.

Walkers numbers speak volumes, he should be in.

I'm not sure anyone in here is reducing it to played in Colorado = No. My primary criticism is the counting stats and durability issues.

Is there much precedent for bat-first outfielders from the Steroid Era getting in with fewer than 400 HR? Make no mistake, Walker was a bat-first player who was a passable outfielder with a cannon arm that won most of his Gold Gloves because he had the best offensive stats. His defense was about average over his career due to his laser arm; his range and fielding were nothing to write home about although we only have heavy duty metrics for the decline phase of his career. I remember a lot of diving plays he made that an outfielder with average speed wouldn't have had to dive for.

Let's not just reduce it to the 383 homers, either, but that's symptomatic of his counting stats overall not quite making the cut. The "era and Coors argument" is just a supplement to that. Outfielders don't generally get in with less than 400 HR, less than 2200 hits, and not much playoff accomplishments to speak of. To get in with counting numbers like these, in that era, you really need some heavy duty media support (unlikely given he played in Colorado) or having been on some insane number of championship teams.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Albert Belle. Not saying he should be in, but he should have been on the ballot longer. Of course he was universally despised by the BBWA.

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Did Albert Belle use steroids? Or was hit bat corked all the time.

[dubcity]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Albert Belle. Not saying he should be in, but he should have been on the ballot longer. Of course he was universally despised by the BBWA.

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He's a guy who was completely ignored because of his rep, in my view. Made Clemens and Bonds seem like likable dudes.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Joey Belle had a really short career (essentially 1991-2000) and was arguably the worst defensive player of that decade. Outside of that and his reputation as a grouchy miser, he was a great player. Packed a ton of counting stats into a short period of time.

He was also one of those players like Dick Allen, Andre Dawson, and Dave Parker that made pitchers afraid of him.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I keep talking about all these players and I'm having nostalgic flashbacks. Just watched the 97 all star game, man the memories.



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[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Did Albert Belle use steroids? Or was hit bat corked all the time.

He said he never used steroids, and claimed he was just an angry black man. Some of those stories about him are hilarious. The Kenny Lofton and thermostat one is gold.

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