Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

[24]

When i refer to the infamous five i refer to the 5 biggest names in baseball that were busted for PED use. Alex Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I believe while yes to an extent they cheated but there are perfectly good reasons why these five should make it to the hall.

First Stats don't lie. Regardless of PED's Stats are Stats. Every Player i mentioned has put up Hall of Fame numbers and Stats don''t lie. Dosen't matter how they produced the stats all that matters is they did. Denying a player with 350+ wins or 600+ homers into the hall of fame is ludicrous regardless of the fact they took PED's.

Second In a way PED's saved baseball. For those who remember baseball was still trying to recover from the infamous 94 strike. By the time 1998 attendance numbers were at an all time low for pretty much every team. Teams were to the point of bankruptcy and if it continued some would have had to relocate. The McGwire sosa home run race was able to restore Baseball to what it once was the great american pastime. And No Fan of baseball can tell me that they did not enjoy the epic race to 61 between McCgwire and sosa.

[Blzer]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

Bonds
Clemens
Rodriguez

I think when all is said and done, these three names will have earned their spot in the Hall of Fame, steroids or not. I have no evidence linking Sosa to steroids, and I almost don't care... I just don't think his numbers, especially his career average and K/PA, qualify for him being in the Hall of Fame. McGwire is on the cusp, but I think if you let him in then you let a lot of other people in as well. Home runs is not the only telling stat for anything, it just shows your ability to pop a ball over the fence. Unless every one of your home runs was a grand slam, a solo home run is no better than an RBI single on the scoreboard. Bonds and Rodriguez have more than this.

As for Clemens, he undoubtedly deserves it and I don't know why this is even a question for him, PED's or not.

[SPTO]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

The only one i'd put in the HOF only because he apologized, went through hell and "gasp" it seems he's actually stopped using them (he had a pretty normal season for someone his age this past year) is Alex Rodriguez.

The other 4 either committed illegal acts and should be in jail or are so far in denial that it would be plain stupid to put them in the HOF. McGwire even without the steroid stuff is a borderline case anyways.

[snepp]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

McGwire is on the cusp, but I think if you let him in then you let a lot of other people in as well. Home runs is not the only telling stat for anything, it just shows your ability to pop a ball over the fence. Unless every one of your home runs was a grand slam, a solo home run is no better than an RBI single on the scoreboard.

Nevermind those 1300 career walks and .394 career OBP, all he does is hit home runs.

*massive eyeroll*

<table class="leaders_table"><thead><tr><th align="right">Rank</th> <th>Player (age)</th> <th align="right">Adjusted OPS+</th><th>Bats</th></tr> </thead> <tbody><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">1.</td><td>Babe Ruth+ </td><td align="right">207</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">2.</td><td>Ted Williams+ </td><td align="right">191</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">3.</td><td>Barry Bonds </td><td align="right">181</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">4.</td><td>Lou Gehrig+ </td><td align="right">179</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">5.</td><td>Rogers Hornsby+ </td><td align="right">175</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">6.</td><td>Mickey Mantle+ </td><td align="right">172</td><td align="right">B</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Albert Pujols (29)</td><td align="right">172</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">8.</td><td>Dan Brouthers+ </td><td align="right">170</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Joe Jackson </td><td align="right">170</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">10.</td><td>Ty Cobb+ </td><td align="right">168</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">11.</td><td>Jimmie Foxx+ </td><td align="right">163</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">12.</td><td>Pete Browning </td><td align="right">162</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Mark McGwire </td><td align="right">162</td><td align="right">R</td></tr></tbody></table>
There's a case to be made for excluding McGwire from the hall, but it couldn't be more blatantly obvious that poo-pooing his offensive contributions is NOT the way to do it.

[SPTO]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

Nevermind those 1300 career walks and .394 career OBP, all he does is hit home runs.

There's a case to be made for excluding McGwire from the hall, but it couldn't be more blatantly obvious that poo-pooing his offensive contributions is NOT the way to do it.

You are correct there is a case to be made against McGwire but it would be wrong to blame it on his offensive output. One factor is the relative brevity of his career for a HOF caliber player. The injuries at the end of his career severely limited his effectiveness. I just think that if the whole andro/steroid stuff never came out he'd eventually get in but would have to wait a long time. I think some people would view him as a better version of Dave Kingman which is silly, but the parallels are kinda there especially after McGwire's HR year where everyone thought of him as just a HR hitter and nothing more.

[Blzer]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

Nevermind those 1300 career walks and .394 career OBP, all he does is hit home runs.

*massive eyeroll*

<table class="leaders_table"><thead><tr><th align="right">Rank</th> <th>Player (age)</th> <th align="right">Adjusted OPS+</th><th>Bats</th></tr> </thead> <tbody><tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">1.</td><td>Babe Ruth+ </td><td align="right">207</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">2.</td><td>Ted Williams+ </td><td align="right">191</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">3.</td><td>Barry Bonds </td><td align="right">181</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">4.</td><td>Lou Gehrig+ </td><td align="right">179</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">5.</td><td>Rogers Hornsby+ </td><td align="right">175</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">6.</td><td>Mickey Mantle+ </td><td align="right">172</td><td align="right">B</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Albert Pujols (29)</td><td align="right">172</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">8.</td><td>Dan Brouthers+ </td><td align="right">170</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Joe Jackson </td><td align="right">170</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr style="" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">10.</td><td>Ty Cobb+ </td><td align="right">168</td><td align="right">L</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">11.</td><td>Jimmie Foxx+ </td><td align="right">163</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right">12.</td><td>Pete Browning </td><td align="right">162</td><td align="right">R</td></tr> <tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="right"> </td><td>Mark McGwire </td><td align="right">162</td><td align="right">R</td></tr></tbody></table>
There's a case to be made for excluding McGwire from the hall, but it couldn't be more blatantly obvious that poo-pooing his offensive contributions is NOT the way to do it.

I was saying that for Sosa, not McGwire. I just said that with these allegations though, he is on the cusp. With or without steroids, he is not a 400/400 guy with gold gloves like Bonds. I'm not making that case either way, I just said that he is a "maybe" for me. Sosa, on the other hand, is a "no."

EDIT: I see how you interpreted it as McGwire, though. I was running with my thoughts and added McGwire late into the post and thought it would be weird to add him at the very bottom for the hitters, so I put him right after Sosa (but ended up going right before my talk about home runs). That was my bad.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

Bonds
Clemens
Rodriguez

I think when all is said and done, these three names will have earned their spot in the Hall of Fame, steroids or not. I have no evidence linking Sosa to steroids, and I almost don't care... I just don't think his numbers, especially his career average and K/PA, qualify for him being in the Hall of Fame. McGwire is on the cusp, but I think if you let him in then you let a lot of other people in as well. Home runs is not the only telling stat for anything, it just shows your ability to pop a ball over the fence. Unless every one of your home runs was a grand slam, a solo home run is no better than an RBI single on the scoreboard. Bonds and Rodriguez have more than this.

As for Clemens, he undoubtedly deserves it and I don't know why this is even a question for him, PED's or not.

100% correct. And this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on this board.

[Ewing]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

Snepp, how the hell did you copy a table, complete with format and working links from B-R into the forum?! I wanna know how to do that.

[snepp]

Re: Should the Infamous Five ever be elected into the Hall of Fame

I didn't do anything special to do that, just a basic click and drag to highlight then copy/paste.