Rule Book Question...

[Tomahawk]

Thought I would ask a few people to see what the proper call should have been in this situation cause I'm not 100% sure what is right and I have never seen it before.

Here's the situation during a high school game on Saturday.

Runner on first base with one out. (Runner hasn't played much baseball, but is a very good athlete.)
Hit and run is called.
Runner gets a huge jump and the ball is lined into center field.
Center field makes the catch.
Runner rounds second and does not make an attempt to re-touch second before attempting to return to first base.
Center field throws the ball towards first base while the runner is between 1st and 2nd base.
Ball travels past the 1st baseman and into a dead ball area. 1st baseman never has the ball to force the runner out at the base.
Runner stopped in between the bases and did not re-touch the 2nd before the ball went into the dead ball area.
Home plate umpire calls dead ball.
Runner is initially allowed to return to 1st base.
Umpire said the ball was dead and the runner could re-touch 2nd then returned to 1st base without penalty.
After discussion with the visiting coach the runner is called out for failure to re-touch.

I thought the umpire missed the call for two reasons.

1. If the ball had not gone into the dead ball the runner could have possibly returned to 2nd then attempted to get back to 1st base before the fielder recovered the ball and forced him out at first. Under the umpire's interpretation the runner was not given this opportunity and actually penalized due to the fielder's poor throw.

2. Under this interpretation anytime a fielder saw a runner not re-touch a bag they could just throw the ball in the stands and the runner would be called out without the runner having an opportunity to correct his mistake.

Any ideas what the proper ruling might be on this play?

[kehlis]

Re: Rule Book Question...

After discussion with the visiting coach the runner is called out for failure to re-touch.

I am pretty sure this was the correct ruling, once he passes second on his way back without touching, he is automatically out.

I thought the umpire missed the call for two reasons.

1. If the ball had not gone into the dead ball the runner could have possibly returned to 2nd then attempted to get back to 1st base before the fielder recovered the ball and forced him out at first. Under the umpire's interpretation the runner was not given this opportunity and actually penalized due to the fielder's poor throw.

2. Under this interpretation anytime a fielder saw a runner not re-touch a bag they could just throw the ball in the stands and the runner would be called out without the runner having an opportunity to correct his mistake.

Any ideas what the proper ruling might be on this play?

1. As I said above, I'm fairly sure that once he misses second on his way back, he is automatically out (for some reason I remember hearing this somewhere).

2. This is irrelevant if my first point is correct.



Again, I'm not positive about this and I'm sure someone else will shed further light on this and prove me wrong but I think I have heard this before although I do vaguely remember a highlight from a game at sometime where a situation similar to this occured and they highlighted how many times the runner went back and forth.

[p_rushing]

Re: Rule Book Question...

Got this from another site

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.

(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.
Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.
PLAY. (b) Batter hits ball to shortstop who throws wild into stand (ball is dead)—batter-runner misses first base but is awarded second base on the overthrow. Even though the umpire has awarded the runner second base on the overthrow, the runner must touch first base before he proceeds to second base. These are appeal plays.

I think the runner would be awarded 2nd base. He must then touch 2nd again, then 1st, and then go back to 2nd. If he did any of that out of order, they could appeal and he would be called out.

[Blzer]

Re: Rule Book Question...

I think p_rushing got it right.

Oh and this is just semantics, but technically you wouldn't be "forcing" the runner out if you get them out at the bag before retreating. I'm just saying it's not a "force out" is all. Only reason this may actually differentiate itself from a regular force out is say you have runners on first and third, and the runner on third tags up and scores while the runner on first does not. If the runner on third scores before the runner from first is called out in any way (tagging the runner or tagging first base), the run still counts. On a real force out, the run wouldn't ever count.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Rule Book Question...

I think p_rushing got it right.

Oh and this is just semantics, but technically you wouldn't be "forcing" the runner out if you get them out at the bag before retreating. I'm just saying it's not a "force out" is all. Only reason this may actually differentiate itself from a regular force out is say you have runners on first and third, and the runner on third tags up and scores while the runner on first does not. If the runner on third scores before the runner from first is called out in any way (tagging the runner or tagging first base), the run still counts. On a real force out, the run wouldn't ever count.

This was a source of controversy at the annual Softball on Ice tournament I play in a few years back. We were down in the bottom of the last inning by one with a guy on third. Our last batter hit a dribbler down the first base line. Which, on a snow covered lake, means the ball went about 15 feet. The runner from third crossed the plate, and instead of throwing the ball to first, the catcher grabbed the ball and tagged the batter who had given up and stopped running towards first. Our runner was correctly called safe at home. The other team was livid at first, but then realized we were playing for fun and all had a pint of schnapps in our winter jacket pockets (provided by the organizers, what a great tournament). It was a "I did not know that" moment for a lot of people. The game ended in a tie. Yes, a tie in softball. We were 0-3-1 that day.

[Blzer]

Re: Rule Book Question...

Ah, but see I raised that question before to an umpire as well. That is, if you tag a runner out instead of the base that he is forced to, I do believe that is still a force out. You can't penalize the defense for going for the moving target as opposed to his/her obliged destination. But running back to a bag after a fly out and not making it in time is not a "force" out.

[p_rushing]

Re: Rule Book Question...

Ah, but see I raised that question before to an umpire as well. That is, if you tag a runner out instead of the base that he is forced to, I do believe that is still a force out. You can't penalize the defense for going for the moving target as opposed to his/her obliged destination. But running back to a bag after a fly out and not making it in time is not a "force" out.

Yes that is still an out and the runner wouldn't score. It doesn't have to be force out. You can tag the runner or have the runner called out for some other reason. The batter/runner must react his base for the run to count if there is a possible force out.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Rule Book Question...

Yes that is still an out and the runner wouldn't score. It doesn't have to be force out. You can tag the runner or have the runner called out for some other reason. The batter/runner must react his base for the run to count if there is a possible force out.

Really? Hmm, our tie is now tainted.