Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

[snepp]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

A point which no person with an educated background in baseball should argue.

But that's the problem, there are dozens of "professionals" that cover baseball who are responsible for making these HoF votes who DO argue.

To a <s>douchebag</s> guy like Jon Heyman, the difference between 493 and 500, or .290 and .300 means everything, regardless of context.

[Blzer]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

But that's the problem, there are dozens of "professionals" that cover baseball who are responsible for making these HoF votes who DO argue.

To a <s>douchebag</s> guy like Jon Heyman, the difference between 493 and 500, or .290 and .300 means everything, regardless of context.

And that's why we have thread like this.

[snepp]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

And that's why we have thread like this.

Too true, unfortunate as it is.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Larry Walker, not a single mention but the guy raked when he played, I don't care if he played in Colorado or not, the guy tore it up all over. Injuries killed him though, but 1300+ runs, 2100+ hits, 383 HR's, 1300+ RBI's, .313 average, .400 OBP, OPS of .965 plus was a good fielder having a tremendous arm.

Walker is an interesting case. I didn't take this post seriously at first because of the dramatic home/away splits (200 point difference in home/away OPS, yikes), but he seems to pass the OPS+ test (he's actually in the Reggie Jackson/Duke Snider range), which should be the biggest red flag for Coors-aided players. Throw in the fact that he had a terrific glove and it's up in the air for me.

I'm one of the bigger proponents for Albert Belle's HOF candidacy and Walker is basically a better-fielding Belle. I don't think he'll ever get in though since he has the Coors effect AND longevity working against him.

[jth1331]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Walker is an interesting case. I didn't take this post seriously at first because of the dramatic home/away splits (200 point difference in home/away OPS, yikes), but he seems to pass the OPS+ test (he's actually in the Reggie Jackson/Duke Snider range), which should be the biggest red flag for Coors-aided players. Throw in the fact that he had a terrific glove and it's up in the air for me.

I'm one of the bigger proponents for Albert Belle's HOF candidacy and Walker is basically a better-fielding Belle. I don't think he'll ever get in though since he has the Coors effect AND longevity working against him.

I want to bring another Rockie into the mix now, Todd Helton.
I feel his back is fading and he won't play much longer, but is he an All Star? Sure he doesn't have a ton of homeruns, 327, or RBI's, 1200+, but the guy for his career has .325 average, .424 OBP, .557 SLG%, OPS .981, an away OPS of .877, OPS+ at 138 at the moment. Also a solid defender at 1B, winning a couple gold gloves. Also flirted with hitting .400 back in 2000 until he hit a September funk that year.
So, what do you guys think?

[Blzer]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I want to bring another Rockie into the mix now, Todd Helton.
I feel his back is fading and he won't play much longer, but is he an All Star? Sure he doesn't have a ton of homeruns, 327, or RBI's, 1200+, but the guy for his career has .325 average, .424 OBP, .557 SLG%, OPS .981, an away OPS of .877, OPS+ at 138 at the moment. Also a solid defender at 1B, winning a couple gold gloves. Also flirted with hitting .400 back in 2000 until he hit a September funk that year.
So, what do you guys think?

He is still superbly tough to argue for the same Coors Field effect that played in his favor. His OPS is .200 points higher at home in his career, though it's still a solid .857 on the road.

I just don't know. I don't like playing this game sometimes for players that are still playing, it's a very tough argument through and through. I think the main issue is that you don't want to put too many people in the HOF despite what they have done for their team(s) and fans in their career, how big their names were at one point, etc. I mean there may be around 300 players in the Hall now, but someday it will expand to 500, then 1000, and that "elite" list won't seem so elite anymore.

There are more arguable cusp players like Jeff Kent, Jim Thome (though he's more than likely in), Jim Edmonds, and Scott Rolen... they are just so tough to decide because you have to imagine who else we'll have to put into the Hall in the future. I know you can't always exactly compare like that, but it would be unfair for some players to not get in and for these guys to with similar numbers but not similar accolades.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Dale Murphy for me is the most obvious choice here. (as is proven by the fact that he isn't in yet).

398 home runs, 1,266 RBI

back to back MVP's in the 80s. 5 Gold Gloves.

Led the majors in homers in the 1980s, and tied for 2nd in RBI (behind Eddie Murray and tied with Mike Schmidt).

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Dale Murphy for me is the most obvious choice here. (as is proven by the fact that he isn't in yet).

398 home runs, 1,266 RBI

back to back MVP's in the 80s. 5 Gold Gloves.

Led the majors in homers in the 1980s, and tied for 2nd in RBI (behind Eddie Murray and tied with Mike Schmidt).

A 121 OPS+ and relatively pedestrian counting stats make him a pretty obvious "no" for me.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

He is still superbly tough to argue for the same Coors Field effect that played in his favor. His OPS is .200 points higher at home in his career, though it's still a solid .857 on the road.

I just don't know. I don't like playing this game sometimes for players that are still playing, it's a very tough argument through and through. I think the main issue is that you don't want to put too many people in the HOF despite what they have done for their team(s) and fans in their career, how big their names were at one point, etc. I mean there may be around 300 players in the Hall now, but someday it will expand to 500, then 1000, and that "elite" list won't seem so elite anymore.

Jim Rice already opened the floodgates IMO.

There's no way Rice should be in the HOF while guys like Belle and Walker are left out. Both put up some remarkable black-ink stats and make a mockery of Rice's OPS+ (which is the only fair way to compare the three players and neuter the Coors factor).

[snepp]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Rice was FEARED!!!! though.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Rice was FEARED!!!! though.

LOL...everyone, and I mean everyone that watched him kept saying that when his candidacy would come up. I haven't been able to find that stat though on his baseball reference page!

[SPTO]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Here's another one

Jack Morris

(Yes I know, bring out your pitchforks and stab me if you must)

[Blzer]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Here's another one

Jack Morris

(Yes I know, bring out your pitchforks and stab me if you must)

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Here's another one

Jack Morris

(Yes I know, bring out your pitchforks and stab me if you must)

I have never seen one guy get so much hype from one game.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Here's an easy one:

Tim Raines.